Spring trip to the Southwestern US

bonal · February 27, 2015

So I looked up BVU Boulder city in Fore flight and it looks like there are 4 published approaches. Now I'm a VFR guy and know very little about the IFR scene but I think what I was looking at were approach plates.

**Ned Gravel** · February 27, 2015

I don't know has Vegas ever been IFR?

OK, then......... Must be nice. Boulder City it is.

**Ned Gravel** · February 27, 2015

Flanders,

Stop here in Wichita (KICT) for lunch/gas. Pepper, Phil, Wojo, and I will host. If schedule permits I've got room to put you guys up for the night and we'll take you out to sample some local brew.

Sardot:

OK good. That would put Wichita on our official visit list between the Ohios and Texas. Dayton to Wichita with a bio and fuel break in St Louis. If it is a quiet evening, that is OK too. Not a lot of beer for me on the night before a flight.

We appreciate your offer of accommodation. We are OK with a hotel near whatever airport you suggest. Allows us the flexibility to do our own thing the following morning.

Cyril Gibb · February 27, 2015

Patrick:

Thanks for this. I will take your advice on the FBOs at KDAY. We will probably clear customs in Port Clinton because I can time the arrival to meet the promise I make on EAPIS better.

We are looking for a hotel probably close to Wright Patterson to make it easy on the day we spend in town. This sound reasonable?

Ned,

I second (or third) the suggestion to clear customs at Port Clinton. Much less hassle than Buffalo. Also more direct from Ottawa if you avoid flying over water. I cross over Point Pelee which keeps you within gliding distance of land.

What caught my eye was the eAPIs comment. You probably know already, but I thought I'd comment for others that haven't done the cross border thing before.

The time you enter for an eAPIs arrival or departure report doesn't really matter. eAPIs is primarily permission to enter or permission to leave the US. (even for US citizens). As long as the manifest (aircraft, pilot and passenger information) doesn't change, no eAPIs resubmission is required if it's on the same date.

What DOES matter is the arrival time you give to customs whether arriving in the US or Canada. If the time changes, you MUST let them know in advance so they're not sitting waiting. The Port Clinton people are very understanding about GA delays if you let them know.

4 things must happen: eAPIs submitted and approval received; VFR or IFR flight plan; advance customs notification, and be in communication with ATC when crossing the border.

**Ned Gravel** · February 27, 2015

Ned I have flown the Grand Canyon and it was great, an oppertunity to see the Grand Canyon like no other way. If we get together on your trip we can discuss. There is a fair amount to it, losts of restrictions, not to worry with proper planning it is a walk in the park!

Thanks Bob and Elton:

I have downloaded all the Grand Canyon SFRA procedures/charts and I do not see a problem with them. I would like to actually fly into the Grand Canyon Nat'l Park Airport (KGCN) which is long enough and wide enough (9000' X 150') for a much bigger aircraft, but at 6600' elev, I may need to use quite a bit of that to get airborne on a high DA day. Got my Koch Chart ready (what else do you expect from a guy whose nickname is Flanders?).

My original plan was to make use of one or two of the corridors for an overflight at a higher altitude (see farther and panorama) and then take one of the helicopter tours for my girl who wishes to see it a little closer. Mind you, using any of the corridors will require both of our necks on swivels to keep a lookout for traffic.

Any other ideas?

**Ned Gravel** · February 27, 2015

Ned,

I second (or third) the suggestion to clear customs at Port Clinton. Much less hassle than Buffalo. Also more direct from Ottawa if you avoid flying over water. I cross over Point Pelee which keeps you within gliding distance of land.

What caught my eye was the eAPIs comment. You probably know already, but I thought I'd comment for others that haven't done the cross border thing before.

The time you enter for an eAPIs arrival or departure report doesn't really matter. eAPIs is primarily permission to enter or permission to leave the US. (even for US citizens). As long as the manifest (aircraft, pilot and passenger information) doesn't change, no eAPIs resubmission is required if it's on the same date.

What DOES matter is the arrival time you give to customs whether arriving in the US or Canada. If the time changes, you MUST let them know in advance so they're not sitting waiting. The Port Clinton people are very understanding about GA delays if you let them know.

4 things must happen: eAPIs submitted and approval received; VFR or IFR flight plan; advance customs notification, and be in communication with ATC when crossing the border.

Patrick:

Good advice indeed.

Only difficulty I ever had was with Cdn customs because of inability to revise my CANPASS arrival time in flight. ATC will not pass messages to them.

Haven't missed a CBP timing yet. Old signal corps saying...."prior preparation and planning prevents p__s poor performance."

By the way, our own CBSA is looking at their own EAPIS too. :huh:

**Ned Gravel** · February 27, 2015

So I looked up BVU Boulder city in Fore flight and it looks like there are 4 published approaches. Now I'm a VFR guy and know very little about the IFR scene but I think what I was looking at were approach plates.

Bonal:

Those are arrival procedures only - not approach procedures. Their counterparts for departures are SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures). SIDs will take you from the runway to the your planned route. STARs - "Standard Terminal Arrival Routes," are different from published approaches and are designed to take you to from your planned rout to an area where you may encounter your Initial Approach Fix (IAF).

Normally one would follow a published STAR (if that was ATCs wish) and at some point (prior to the IAF presumably) transition to the approach desired or directed by ATC. If you want to see the difference, look up KHND in Foreflight and you will see both.

Since BVU has no published approaches, I would normally request (from ATC) a "contact" approach in Canada to transition to VFR and make a visual approach to the field. VFR conditions must be present on the field at the time of the request. Perhaps one of our IFR gurus can explain this better than I for the US.

This OK?

RocketAviator · February 27, 2015

Thanks Bob and Elton:

I have downloaded all the Grand Canyon SFRA procedures/charts and I do not see a problem with them. I would like to actually fly into the Grand Canyon Nat'l Park Airport (KGCN) which is long enough and wide enough (9000' X 150') for a much bigger aircraft, but at 6600' elev, I may need to use quite a bit of that to get airborne on a high DA day. Got my Koch Chart ready (what else do you expect from a guy whose nickname is Flanders?).

My original plan was to make use of one or two of the corridors for an overflight at a higher altitude (see farther and panorama) and then take one of the helicopter tours for my girl who wishes to see it a little closer. Mind you, using any of the corridors will require both of our necks on swivels to keep a lookout for traffic.

Any other ideas?

You can use the KGCN, although I much perfer an airport 17NM south 4200 priviate airport open to the public with fuel at 5.74 compared to 7.20 at KGCN. The guys that owns the airport also has a World Class on field Aircraft Musuem.... worth the view if that intrests you. Not a real big deal on aircraft there are ususally a several but not a big deal the times I have flown it. Landing at 1 G4 and going out onthe Glass Walk was a big dissipointment.... Not something I recommend however this is where you and the only as far as I know ride a helicopter down into the canyon if that is something you want to do. NO FUEL at 1G4, also if you dont go out on thier Glass Walk there was a $100 landing fee. I am told they are not real strick on this, no one even asked us either time. You fly right over the Glass walk on your approach from the north... Great view and you see far more in your plane. Also the Glass Walk is only on a small tribituary of the acutal Grand Canyon and not the main canyon. The walk over to the view of the main canyon is worth the trip. This is where the US jets cut the mining car cable when they flew under it some years ago.... They serve food and drinks there too! Indian Reservation.

bonal · February 27, 2015

Bonal:

Those are arrival procedures only - not approach procedures. Their counterparts for departures are SIDs (Standard Instrument Departures). SIDs will take you from the runway to the your planned route. STARs - "Standard Terminal Arrival Routes," are different from published approaches and are designed to take you to from your planned rout to an area where you may encounter your Initial Approach Fix (IAF).

Normally one would follow a published STAR (if that was ATCs wish) and at some point (prior to the IAF presumably) transition to the approach desired or directed by ATC. If you want to see the difference, look up KHND in Foreflight and you will see both.

Since BVU has no published approaches, I would normally request (from ATC) a "contact" approach in Canada to transition to VFR and make a visual approach to the field. VFR conditions must be present on the field at the time of the request. Perhaps one of our IFR gurus can explain this better than I for the US.

This OK?

I learn something just about every time I visit Mooney space and without a doubt every time I make a comment about something. Its all good. and If you have never seen the Hoover Dam its worth the visit. Happy con trails to you.

**Ned Gravel** · February 27, 2015

You can use the KGCN, although I much perfer an airport 17NM south 4200 priviate airport open to the public with fuel at 5.74 compared to 7.20 at KGCN. The guys that owns the airport also has a World Class on field Aircraft Musuem.... worth the view if that intrests you. Not a real big deal on aircraft there are ususally a several but not a big deal the times I have flown it. Landing at 1 G4 and going out onthe Glass Walk was a big dissipointment.... Not something I recommend however this is where you and the only as far as I know ride a helicopter down into the canyon if that is something you want to do. NO FUEL at 1G4, also if you dont go out on thier Glass Walk there was a $100 landing fee. I am told they are not real strick on this, no one even asked us either time. You fly right over the Glass walk on your approach from the north... Great view and you see far more in your plane. Also the Glass Walk is only on a small tribituary of the acutal Grand Canyon and not the main canyon. The walk over to the view of the main canyon is worth the trip. This is where the US jets cut the mining car cable when they flew under it some years ago.... They serve food and drinks there too! Indian Reservation.

Thanks Elton:

Wasn't going to stay at GCN - just land to say we had.

Good info on the Glass Walk. That was on the list, but getting there by some other means. BVU has been recommended, and for us it has access to Vegas and the Hoover Dam. We are looking at Fodor's Grand Canyon Travel Guide, but I do not think we will be able to spend more than a day actually in the Canyon itself. The other two days are for Vegas and Hoover Dam/Lake Mead.

One more question. Given my druthers to fly IFR, but also given the MEAs for this area (won't get to Vegas at less than 10,000' from El Paso - even if I go via Phoenix) what are the chances of MOAs being hot while I am trying to transition? Specifically the ones between Deming and Phoenix?

**Ned Gravel** · March 9, 2015

My thanks to all who have responded and, with your advice, we have created our plan. Like all good plans, not really surviving first contact with adversities, we have built in some slush.

So here is the current plan.

Mar 26 Fly to KPCW Port Clinton OH 13:00 clear US Customs and lunch with Cruiser (Tom K)

Fly to KDAY Dayton OH Use ASI FBO. Possibly meet Patrick (Mooneyman), Comfort Suites Wright Patterson

Mar 27 Wright Patterson Airforce Museum

Mar 28 Fly to KCPS St. Louis MO gas stop & lunch

Fly to KICT Wichita KS Dave Marten, Phil, Wojo, Pepper, Hotel Wichita Inn Airport (shuttle)

Mar 29 Fly to KGRK Killeen TX Hotel Candlewood Suites

Mar 30 1^st Cavalry Museum, buy a cavalry hat.

Mar 31 Fly to KELP El Paso TX Rocketman (Elton), Hawthorne Suites Wyndham

Apr 1 Fly to KBLD Boulder City (Las Vegas) NV

Apr 2 Grand Canyon/Vegas/Hoover Dam etc

Apr 3

Apr 4

Apr 5 Fly to KELP El Paso TX Just for overnight. Hawthorne Suites Wyndham

Apr 6 Fly to KERV Kerrville TX Mooney Factory tour, Hampton Inn

Apr 7 Fly to KSAT San Antonio TX Visit the Alamo. Hampton Inn San Antonio

Apr 8 Fly to KMEM Memphis TN Just for overnight. Hampton Inn

Apr 9 Fly to CYQG Windsor ON Clear customs & overnight, Ramada Inn

Apr 10 Fly to CYRO Rockcliffe ON Home

3 more days allowed for contingencies.

California will be in two years time when we have less to visit on the way. If I have messed something up here, do not be afraid to tell me. (Who am I kidding, right? This is Mooneyspace after all - where no one is afraid to let loose.) ^_^

bonal · March 9, 2015

Looks like an awesome trip sadly you wont reach our beautiful coast when you do make it out west as someone from the north end of the state I must say southern CA beaches are nice and the water is warm but in terms of beauty they don't hold a candle compared to the north. Hope you have a fantastic adventure and a safe journey.

**N201MKTurbo** · March 12, 2015

Southern California ocean water may be warm compared to Nor Cal water, but that's about it. It is always freezing over there.

bonal · March 12, 2015

Southern California ocean water may be warm compared to Nor Cal water, but that's about it. It is always freezing over there.

Huh? Let's see it's supposed to hit 80 this weekend in northern CA and 70 at the coast. Think I'll take my wife and look for some whales.

RocketAviator · March 12, 2015

Flounder March 31 I will be home, just completing the Yuma Mooney Formation Clinic!

Please plan to stay with us. Keep us posted.

Plan on 5T6 if you desire lower fuel cost and only 5 min from my home. Great War Aircraft Museum on field too.

I'll PM you my cell shortly.

**Ned Gravel** · March 13, 2015

Flounder March 31 I will be home, just completing the Yuma Mooney Formation Clinic!

Please plan to stay with us. Keep us posted.

Plan on 5T6 if you desire lower fuel cost and only 5 min from my home. Great War Aircraft Museum on field too.

I'll PM you my cell shortly.

Lacee:

Thanks - got it all. PM received and returned.

rainman · March 17, 2015

Ned, I live between San Antonio and Kerrville, and keep my plane at 5C1 (Boerne Stage). Let me know if I can be of any help while in this part of Texas. Ray

**Ned Gravel** · March 17, 2015

Ned, I live between San Antonio and Kerrville, and keep my plane at 5C1 (Boerne Stage). Let me know if I can be of any help while in this part of Texas. Ray

Thanks Ray. The two airports are only about 20 Mooney minutes apart so our plan is to spend the night in Kerrville, following the trip from El Paso, and try to do a factory tour that afternoon. Should only take a few hours (I think).

The next morning is our short hop to San Antonio, to spend the day at the Alamo.

But, since you live in the neighbourhood, do you know if KSSF (Stinson) is closer to the Riverwalk (and Alamo) than KSAT (San Antonio International)?

**DonMuncy** · March 17, 2015

Stinson is closer. If you can get transportation, it would be the better choice. It is also less congested, both auto and air traffic.

**mooneyflyfast** · March 18, 2015

Thanks Ray. The two airports are only about 20 Mooney minutes apart so our plan is to spend the night in Kerrville, following the trip from El Paso, and try to do a factory tour that afternoon. Should only take a few hours (I think).

The next morning is our short hop to San Antonio, to spend the day at the Alamo.

But, since you live in the neighbourhood, do you know if KSSF (Stinson) is closer to the Riverwalk (and Alamo) than KSAT (San Antonio International)?

The Alamo tour will not take all day. Phil Collins recently donated his extensive collection of Alamo artifacts. Don't know if it is on display yet but would be very interesting you could see it. Other downtown attractions include the Riverwalk. (take a narrated boat tour) and the Briscoe Western art gallery. For lunch try Schilo's Deli on Commerce St. Budro's on the Riverwalk is good for lunch or dinner. The Mexican Manhattan has good TexMex and a nice outdoor area overlooking the river--locals mostly frequent this place. If the laser light show is still on it is a must see. Laser light show projected on the SanFernando Cathedral (Main Plaza) depicting the history of the area and set to music. Free admission--you just stand in the square and watch.

**Ned Gravel** · March 18, 2015

Thanks for the info Don and Mr. "mooneyflyfast". We will make good use of it.

kerry · March 20, 2015

http://www.bar10.com/lodge.amp#5

I just found out about this place. I flew over it today. They have a 4500' paved strip, nightly entertainment and you can spend the night in a covered wagon. Reminds me of the movie City Slickers.

**Ned Gravel** · March 20, 2015

http://www.bar10.com/lodge.amp#5

I just found out about this place. I flew over it today. They have a 4500' paved strip, nightly entertainment and you can spend the night in a covered wagon. Reminds me of the movie City Slickers.

Thanks. We will have a look.

Ned Gravel

Lucky steward of C-FSWR, a '65 E model at Rockcliffe, Ontario, (CYRO)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**Ned Gravel** · March 25, 2015

Well the weather system that straddles Hudson Bay to New York is blocking my way, but the TAFs between Ottawa and Port Clinton indicate that the bulk of that should be passed by first light tomorrow (26 March 2015).

Cross border stuff has been filed and Cruiser knows we are making the attempt.

Should be in Port Clinton by 12:30 to clear and then (after lunch) off to Dayton.

Cruiser · March 25, 2015

We will be waiting for you.

Good thing you are not travelling today. Local flights to the islands report moderate turbulence and 50 kts winds out of the SW. This is at 2000 MSL.

Tomorrow looks much better.

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