romair Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 I was planning on taking my Mooney to Willmar this Sunday for a strip and reseal . The trip from Dallas is definitely going to be long, but now weather is starting to look like an issue as well. Im newly IFR rated so I try to keep conservative personal minimums. Since I have almost no icing protection in the J model, that is my biggest concern right now. How cold does it need to be that you are not worried about picking up ice in the clouds? What about snow- is there a problem flying through it? Thanks Stefan Quote
carusoam Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Temps below freezing make it difficult to pick up ice... Moisture rising up into the freezing levels is bad... Flying through ice crystals is abrasive... Some ideas to keep in mind... -a- Quote
John Pleisse Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Once your OAT is +4 to -20c, you need to be in the clear. I wouldn't mess around with it. The upper mid west in the winter is no place to flirt with moisture (IMHO) and getting stuck on top could be problematic. Unless you are certain you are above a deck that is no more than 1,500 feet thick. In the 201, you'll hear it on the prop first, before it accumulates on the windscreen or leading edges. Cycle the prop right away and boogie. "Snow" is overrated. Sure it doesn't stick to your wings, but what do you get? Zero-zero viz. Quote
jkhirsch Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 I was taught that below 20 Fahrenheit is safe for snow. Obviously icing/known icing you're talking about some different issues there. Quote
Andy95W Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Why not wait until Spring/Summer or just take it to Don Maxwell instead? Quote
Hank Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Maxwell uses Paul Beck's process. Should be just as good, andnd a whole lot closer! No ice trouble, either. Quote
jlunseth Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Snow is hard water. It is rarely a problem. It could cause induction icing by clogging the induction intake, but unless it is really wet snow for some reason it is not an icing issue because it does not adhere. The rule of thumb is that icing is most likely between 0 and -20 C, -20C being -5F. However, icing is possible all the way down to -48C/-54Fafter which supercooled water does not exist. You need to find a way to stay below the clouds. I have found myself flying as low as 1,000 AGL over fairly long distances in order to do that. In conditions like that it is always dicey to go IFR, because the controller may want you at a minimum of 4,000 for radar contact, and that may be about the worst place to be from the standpoint of icing. Same thing happens with flight following, they will either want you up higher or they will cancel. Best thing to do is file a VFR flight plan and use FSS to open and close it. Unfortunately, we do sometimes have winter conditions where the clouds or at least dense mist or snow fog comes all the way to the ground. I looked at the Prog Charts though, for this weekend, and it does not look too bad. I would just call Brian and tell him you may not be able to make it because of weather. He lives here and he gets it. Either that, or get up here today it is really nice. Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Just look at the ADDS icing forecast before you go and the AIRMET and SIGMETs. The icing forecasts are very conservative. If there are no ice forecast you are pretty safe. Sent from my LG-C800 using Tapatalk 2 Quote
Will W Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 This is the problem with most CFII's, they don't teach icing! If you go on Adds, you can get a supplementary icing information chart that allows you to chose altitudes and times. Look for in one drop down "Icing severity + SLD" and choose your valid times you'll be flying in. Then choose your altitude you'll cruise at and skip down below it to see if you'll pick some up in the descent. You can get a great write up describing what is going on with their forecast product: http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/description/page_no/1 http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/description/page_no/2 http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/description/page_no/3 http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/description/page_no/4 AIRMETs and SIGMETs NEVER report trace or light icing so don't trust them by themselves. For the record, I've gotten icing +10C! Quote
kevinw Posted January 30, 2015 Report Posted January 30, 2015 Probably not a good weekend to head this direction. I'm in Iowa and snow showers are forecast across the state on Saturday and Sunday. Here's what I use for icing forcast; picked it up here on a post a while back. I think Jose shared it. http://aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/icingnav?icg_type=CIPSEVO_00&height=090 Quote
Piloto Posted January 31, 2015 Report Posted January 31, 2015 I would be more concern about how the sealant is going to be kept warm enough to cure after application. The wing temp. should be at least 70F, best if 90F. I assume Willmar will be using portable heaters underneath the wing. José Quote
romair Posted January 31, 2015 Author Report Posted January 31, 2015 That's correct. He keeps the hanger warm. Also, I thought that Don Maxwell does not do tank reseals anymore, but maybe I'm wrong... Quote
Piloto Posted January 31, 2015 Report Posted January 31, 2015 That's correct. He keeps the hanger warm. That's what they told me about a heated hangar at St. John's (CYYT). Notice the guys in parkas in the "heated" hangar. That's what I love of Florida snow free taxiway/ramp and free heated hangar all year around. José Quote
BorealOne Posted January 31, 2015 Report Posted January 31, 2015 "Heated" is a matter of degree, Jose - that hangar's whole lot warmer than it is outdoors. ADDs has a great icing tool. The Canadian GFAs will also give you a pretty good look at icing in cloud/airmasses with AGL altitudes that close to the border. As to whether I'd be making that flight this weekend as a freshly minted IFR pilot in a non-FIKI plane...I'd be extra careful and fly only in the clear. I spend a lot of time poking holes in winter clouds, and I'm often surprised at just how much ice you can find in places where you aren't expecting it. Quote
romair Posted January 31, 2015 Author Report Posted January 31, 2015 Yeah, right now it looks like it will be a last minute decision if the weather happens to be right. No reason to take that much risk. This is one of the reasons I like this site...getting ideas from others who have more experience. Quote
aaronk25 Posted January 31, 2015 Report Posted January 31, 2015 In Mn, IA if there is a system moving though you can get ice all the way up to cloud tops. Sure some altitudes are better but finding a layer without ice might not exist. If there isn't a system moving though and it isn't sunny we see a lot of tops at 2500-3500agl. With bases at 900-1500agl. For the most approaches it allows for staying on top and getting established on the localizer then diving through the crude to what is almost a guaranteed "no go around approach". Notice I said almost. Ice isn't fun and a lot better pilots than me have gotten killed in icing. With that said I still want to use my aircraft in the winter in MN, but I make darn sure that there is recent reports of tops and bases and use skewT charts to determine freezing level and dewpoint. There is several times I'll blow up though a layer of moderate ice but only if it's 2k thick. Prior do doing so level off, wind up airspeed and blow up thigh it at a increased rate of climb. I'm glad you seem cautious. The following pics are a common result from less than 3 min in the clouds, most formation of ice is at the cloud tops, but not always. Be careful and if your a Ifr pilot avoid it. If the clouds are between +2--8c and they look wet....THEY ARE WET and full of stuff that belongs in a cocktail glass. The worst ice happens up here between -1c and -4c. None of the experiences I've had in ice, in the mooney have resulted in any measurable speed loss. However ice on the leading edge of a mooney laminar flow wing will stall at a lower angle of attack, when contaminated with ice when compared to a archer or 182. Our wings just don't deal well with disrupted airflow. Be careful and if you don't have much midwest ice flying experience it's best to stay out of it. Probably best to stay out of it regardless. My DPE said stay the hell out of it as he was flying cargo on a twin cessna 421 and had so much ice on it he was at full power on the localizer to maintain approach speed. A go around would not have been possible. He told me this not to brag but because it scared the hell out of him. That was many years ago. Quote
romair Posted February 3, 2015 Author Report Posted February 3, 2015 Much better flying weather today. Trip from Dallas to Willmar went without any problems. Now waiting to see what Paul will do with the fuel tanks... 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 Using my car as the test medium... It is rare around here for there to be winds when it is extreme cold (below 0F). Happily if it is -10F for a high, then it is usually still air and clear blue skies. It is even more rare for there to be snow when it is extreme cold. Occasionally we get two of the above. VERY rarely do we get all 3. Today we got all 3. Today's high was around -5F with 30-40mph winds and we got 1F of snow. My car built up a lot of structural ice today. Several times I cleared it off and drove around and then later when I wanted to use it again - more ice. I don't mean just the white fluffy snow to brush off - but hard adherent ice. I was thinking how nice that wasn't my airplane wing today. 1 Quote
FlyDave Posted February 3, 2015 Report Posted February 3, 2015 Using my car as the test medium... It is rare around here for there to be winds when it is extreme cold (below 0F). Happily if it is -10F for a high, then it is usually still air and clear blue skies. It is even more rare for there to be snow when it is extreme cold. Occasionally we get two of the above. VERY rarely do we get all 3. Today we got all 3. Today's high was around -5F with 30-40mph winds and we got 1F of snow. My car built up a lot of structural ice today. Several times I cleared it off and drove around and then later when I wanted to use it again - more ice. I don't mean just the white fluffy snow to brush off - but hard adherent ice. I was thinking how nice that wasn't my airplane wing today. Yikes! Quote
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