When do you cut your loses?

[Thunder669]

When is enough enough???? Trying to decide when to cut my loses and start searching all over again. I have been quietly working a deal on an M20E for nearly a month now. It is a very low time bird, with low engine and prop times. It was listed by a broker at a reasonable but tad high price. So I called him up, got a ton more info including copies of the last few years log books and he agreed with me in the price and sent the seller a lower offer. After a couple days the seller came back with a counter offer higher then we expected but decided to keep trying. And after reading through the logs I saw that within the last year the tanks had been completely stripped and resealed so that made me feel better about spending a little more. After a bit of back and forth we agreed upon a price that was to include delivery. The plane is about 300 miles away. In fact the agreement was he would fly the plane up here, if it passed the ppi then he would be paid, rent a car and drive home. So to facilitate this I have already spent the money on a title search, and several other things. Have the loan all done up where with one phone call it will be closed and the money will be wired to his account.

Well the first sign of trouble was when the seller who is a lawyer decided his brokers standard purchase agreement form wasn't good enough and he wanted to write his own. That was first delay. Then he kept asking for more info and even wanted my mechanics certification number. Now mind you I have him taking it to a licensed repair facility at a major airport not my buddy showing up in his pickup. The broker had not even heard of such a demand before. So after a week plus of this back and forth bs he finally emails the purchase agreement to the broker and it is not at all what we agreed to. He wrote in there that after it passed inspection that myself and another licensed pilot would fly him back home at our expense. The broker calls me up, apologizes and tells me to write back a firm email that it needs to be rewrote to the terms we had discussed so he could forward it on. He finally rewrites as we agreed and everything is finally looking good. Next he tells me he has court most of the week so Tuesday and Friday are the only days he is free so we will watch the weather. Well other then being cold the weather looks absolutely perfect so I call him up to make sure he is still coming, got it scheduled with the mechanic and my CFII to be there and he informs me he can't till atleast Friday because he can't get a ride. I ask what about the plan to rent a car and head home? He says it cost too much and he refuses to pay that so I'll have to wait till atleast Friday when he can have someone drive him. He has been so bad that even the broker he hired has said if I walk away from the deal he is done with the guy too. I sent an email off tonight saying that if it is not here by Friday for any reason other then the weather I am walking away. My girl thinks I have given him way to much slack already.

So at what point do I say enough is enough, cut my loses both financially and time wise and move on to look for the next one. It looks like a solid basic bird from all the pics and the logs and would be a great plane to either start out in and move up later, or make into a project upgrading (which I know makes no financial sense but I love projects and building and customizing stuff). The plane looks good, the price is fair, the broker seems to be a stand up guy, but the seller is being a nightmare. I already have a lot of time and money invested and think it would be a great fit and feel I am extremely close to making it happen, but how much should I take before I say no more!!!!

[M20F-1968]

I think you have answered your own question by saying, "I already have a lot of time and money invested and think it would be a great fit and feel I am extremely close to making it happen."  1) The guy is a busy professional and I as a physician get it that he does not have time to deal with it all, 2) he probably wants to control more of the sale (which is his problem), BUT 3) if you are satisfied with the plane and the price, you will spend far more in time and money looking for another.  Just get it done and move on.  Split the fuel and fly him home.  You are buying a plane because you enjoy flying, right?

IMHO -John 

[RonM2OC]

what state(s)?

[StinkBug]

300mi isn't that long a trip. Personally I'd just fly him home. Then again I just bought a plane 1000 miles away and am dealing with getting it home.

 

That said, this guy does sound like a total pain in the ass, and he keeps trying to change the deal. I'd be really worried about what's gonna happen if the PPI turns up anything that needs repair (which it will). You didn't say anything about how the purchase agreement states these things, and with his behavior so far I'd want that set in stone before wasting any more time and money.

[Thunder669]

the problem with flying him home is first I would have to pay a CFII for a good 4 hours. And if it took till say 4pm to finish the inspection then we would be flying till about 8pm which would mean several hours at night in a plane neither me nor my instructor know. Just something we are not comfortable doing. And even then it was more about the way he went about it verbally agreeing to one thing then putting something else in the contract hoping I wouldn't catch it. as far as inspection results it is in there that any airworthiness issues will be at his expense.

[Houman]

Well, I kind of know your pain, before buying a partnership in my Rocket, I had several potential deals that fell trough for many many reasons.

I think the best advice I got in buying a plane, is don't fall in love with one before it is yours. Be always ready to walk away is something is fishy. I agree with previous comments as to the PPI, the whole verbal thing is probably very annoying and taking away from the joy and sense of accomplishement of buying a plane (not everyone can do that), but once your deal is done with the guy and all goes well, you will never have to deal with him again.

But from what you have described, if I really wanted the plane, I would take a ride to his location and have the PPI done there using your guy (never his guy) and at that point, it is much easier to either walk away or just fly the plane back home with an CFII...

It is a bit more cost for you to start up with, but probably easier to walk away from if the PPI is not to your satisfaction...

just my 2c of opinion..

[Cris]

As others have said if you like the A/C find a way to stick with it until completion. My last A/C purchase took 4 months and I was ready to walk any number of times but in the end it was just a very busy seller. It has been a great plane so I am quite happy with the decision to stick it out. However in my case the emotion which you are experiencing was mitigated by the broker. I finally backed off and made him get the deal done. After all he is the sellers agent. Make him figure out how to make it happen. It might be as simple as the broker giving a bit of his commission For a car rental. If possible it would be good for the broker to go to the Pre purchase with the seller as any small thing may cause issues between you. Hopefully this attorney is not a litigator as he will want to "win" but it's the brokers job to make that happen and get the deal done.

[schule]

He may be having regrets about selling. If he is a descent lawyer then it is likely not for the costs, if he is a descent pilot it is likely not for the lack of flying enjoyment, add in the apparent attachment with all the expensive labor costs associated with a reseal and enough good log book entries that you are happy with the higher price and it all adds up............I bet he loves the plane and it is a dream he is having a difficult time parting with.

This is a "problem" most of us deal with. Owning a Mooney, or any GA, usually is a function of love for the sport rather than good monetary policy.

On the PPI paying for the plane prior to fixes complete could be a bad idea and also ground the plane making the return trip a problem.

This could be a great opportunity for you to get to know your Mooney. Fly him home telling stories and prove how much he trusts the airplane, but land before sunset. Get him to buy you all a good dinner for the effort and fly back the next morning. A good Saturday and some XC time learning will likely be cheaper than starting again. These expenses will only be a minor part of the overall ownership experience.

$0.02 at the value paid. Hope it all works out for you.

[Oscar Avalle]

He may be having regrets about selling. If he is a descent lawyer then it is likely not for the costs, if he is a descent pilot it is likely not for the lack of flying enjoyment, add in the apparent attachment with all the expensive labor costs associated with a reseal and enough good log book entries that you are happy with the higher price and it all adds up............I bet he loves the plane and it is a dream he is having a difficult time parting with.

This is a "problem" most of us deal with. Owning a Mooney, or any GA, usually is a function of love for the sport rather than good monetary policy.

On the PPI paying for the plane prior to fixes complete could be a bad idea and also ground the plane making the return trip a problem.

This could be a great opportunity for you to get to know your Mooney. Fly him home telling stories and prove how much he trusts the airplane, but land before sunset. Get him to buy you all a good dinner for the effort and fly back the next morning. A good Saturday and some XC time learning will likely be cheaper than starting again. These expenses will only be a minor part of the overall ownership experience.

$0.02 at the value paid. Hope it all works out for you.

I agree. I think he really does not want to sell... I would not want to sell mine and most likely if I had to, I would find excuses to hold on to my bird one more day...

[Marauder]

He may be having regrets about selling. If he is a descent lawyer then it is likely not for the costs, if he is a descent pilot it is likely not for the lack of flying enjoyment, add in the apparent attachment with all the expensive labor costs associated with a reseal and enough good log book entries that you are happy with the higher price and it all adds up............I bet he loves the plane and it is a dream he is having a difficult time parting with.

This is a "problem" most of us deal with. Owning a Mooney, or any GA, usually is a function of love for the sport rather than good monetary policy.

On the PPI paying for the plane prior to fixes complete could be a bad idea and also ground the plane making the return trip a problem.

This could be a great opportunity for you to get to know your Mooney. Fly him home telling stories and prove how much he trusts the airplane, but land before sunset. Get him to buy you all a good dinner for the effort and fly back the next morning. A good Saturday and some XC time learning will likely be cheaper than starting again. These expenses will only be a minor part of the overall ownership experience.

$0.02 at the value paid. Hope it all works out for you.

That was what I was thinking as well; seller's remorse. Do you know the reason he is selling? You may have mentioned this, what are the terms of correcting anything found during the inspection? Worst situation would be that something is found and he refuses to correct it or adjust the price.

[slowflyin]

How many hours of dual does your CFI or Insurance company require?  Maybe that would help ease the pain of flying him home.   300 miles is a couple of hours each way.....

[N601RX]

I don't think all this taking place in one day is going to happen.

Him fly the plane 300 miles to you.

Open the plane up and perform the detailed inspection

Close everything back up

Agree on what need fixing

Complete the transaction

Fly him 300 miles back home.

You fly the plane 300 miles back home.

 

Your looking a a few to several days not one.

[cbarry]

Look at this way. In a good deal, mutual assent(meeting of the minds) should occur. For this to happen both parties have a core agreement(the purchase contract) and each should be somewhat flexible to help make the agreement come together. For instance, flying weather should be left to the PIC, just as your choice of AP/AI should be respected. Unless y'all have agreed otherwise, typically the buyer and seller will split the cost of relocating the aircraft--especially if the seller is willing to fly it to you. The dually signed purchase contract is your fallback.

[RobertGary1]

Honestly, if I liked the plane I'd just go get it myself. The cost of the cfi and extra travel is peanuts in the big picture.

[aviatoreb]

I have a different take from the above interpretations that you are simply dealing with a stand up guy who is a busy professional and has sellers remorse.

 

I think you are dealing with a selfish seller who is a control freak and will continue to move the goal post as you go right through the very end.  You are not done until the prebuy inspection is complete and normally this can be a difficult part too.

 

From what I have heard I would be done with this guy.  It is a buyers market.  I had a similar kind of seller when I was buying a house once.  He kept moving the deal after we negotiated a price that in retrospect was stupid of us already as it was way above market value (but we didn't understand clearly since we had just moved here from a much more expensive market and everything looked cheap).  The house was really nice and we were willing to overpay - the guy was so annoying and eventually made it impossible to deal with him.  Everything everything he kept changing the deal or not agreeing to standard aspects (like the deposit he wanted 300% more than industry standard, and he too was writing his own personal sellers agreement which in every possible way favored the seller and not balanced toward the buyer).  Well eventually we had to walk.  We had no choice.  His realestate agent fired him too.  So for saving a little money he ended up loosing lots of money.  That house remained empty for 5 years after that, during which time he paid taxes and upkeep (sort of) on an empty house, and he eventually sold for $75k less than we offered.  Let this seller enjoy his airplane and I would advise you to go enjoy another airplane and seller.  What else is he hiding?  I figure when I buy something expensive like a house or an airplane, I am buying the product plus some inherent trust in the seller.  Sounds like you have little trust now in him.  If nothing else this is bad mojo way to start with a new airplane.

[carusoam]

This is getting away in the sense that the buyer has not written down his expectations.

A purchase agreement is the document that machine buyers/sellers use to list all the terms of who is going to do what when to make this deal close.

The PPI is important to the buyers finances. It must be done.

Having the PPI done 300 miles away from the seller is pretty uncomfortable for him.

Having a PPI fail 300 miles away from the owner is a possibility.

Have you agreed on what will be fixed by who when they are found?

Are you expecting to negotiate the price even more based on the laundry list that will come from a PPI?

How are you going to handle it?

What will happen when corrosion is found, or paint is missing or something is cracked?

Have you written these down in your purchasing agreement?

Essentially you are working with a couple of professional people. A Broker and a Lawyer on one side and a potential buyer, free advice, and his girl on the other.

Make the seller comfortable by documenting your expectations and help him get back home...

It is best if you do all of this close to the seller. 300 miles is pretty far and can get expensive for the buyer quickly.

My worst PPI experience was on a plane that had bent metal and popped rivets covered in Bondo... The PPI took 5 minutes. The seller wouldn't budge on price or fixes. My down payment was stuck until the small claims date was established.

Be aware, some people are not very nice.

Be honest with yourself. Know your expectations. Write them down.

Best regards,

-a-

[Thunder669]

I believe he is selling simply because he does not utilize it. Looking through the logs he only averages 15-20 hours a year on it. The delivery was negotiated into the price of the plane. These are only a few examples of the stuff he has tried to pull or change. The broker has said once I am done he is done, wether the deal gets done or not. The seller is forcing him to take a cut on the commission to get the the deal done and then still trying to demand more from him. The broker told me this guy is causing him more headaches then any buisness jet he has sold. We had a discussion on Friday and it was agreed that if the weather was good today he would fly the plane up and then rent a car and drive home. Well the weather is great the shop was ready to do the inspection everything was in place and he decided that he didn't want to spend the money to rent a car and I would just have to wait longer and the shop and everybody can just work around him. I am also a very busy person working 10 hours a day 6 days a week and that is one of the things that makes these constant changes so difficult. I am a man of my word and if I make an agreement with someone I am going to do everything in my power to honor that agreement. Unfortunately this guy has tried to change every agreement he has made with me, and his broker every step of the way. I am going to try and hold out a bit longer but I also know of atleast 4 other planes in a reasonable distance that would suit my mission, and I can't help but wonder if one of those sellers could use the money and be more honest then this guy

[Thunder669]

It has all been agreed upon. If it is something that the shop deems an airworthiness issue then he is responsible for fixing it. Pretty much anything else is on me

[carusoam]

Who is doing the PPI?

Know that there is a possibility of your PPI missing something critical/expensive.

The cheaper the PPI is the higher your risk becomes.

Newer planes, kept indoors, that have MSC pedigrees are generally lower risk.

50 year old planes that are outside without any MSC experience are higher risk.

Best regards,

-a-

I have statistically very little experience in buying and selling planes...

[Cruiser]

It has all been agreed upon. If it is something that the shop deems an airworthiness issue then he is responsible for fixing it. Pretty much anything else is on me

Ya, right..........

 

based on everything you have shared, how do you think that is going to work out? My bet is he welshes on the repairs and tells you he is not going to pay for anything.

 

Remember, the plane is only worth what you (the buyer) is willing to pay. If you really want it, stick it out but it is going to cost you more. 

[Wakeup]

I would walk!! Number one...your dealing with a lawyer. Number two.. your dealing with a lawyer.

[pinerunner]

I'd be itching to fly it anyway so flying him home would be no problem

[Jerry 5TJ]

Honestly, if I liked the plane I'd just go get it myself. The cost of the cfi and extra travel is peanuts in the big picture.

And that way you don't ever have to fly with the seller

[chrisk]

I was in a similar situation when I went to by my plane.  To make a long story short, it drug on for 2 months, and then I called the deal off.  The man lived in a remote area of Nebraska (North Platte).  He always had a reason for why he couldn't get the plane to the Mooney shop near Denver for a PPI, which was the closest shop, and about 200 miles. 

 

Eventually I bought my 231 from a South West pilot near Chicago.   He was very easy to work with.  We had the standard deal, I pay for the PPI and he pays for any airworthy items.  And if he doesn't want to pay for the airworthy items, he can pay for the inspection and take his plane home.  I agreed to pay the $350 for him to bring the plane to Dugosh, which was about 900 miles (a tank of fuel!).  I mailed him the check, and a week later the plane was in Kerville.  He and I were both there for the PPI.  After the inspections, he paid for the one or two minor airworthy items, maybe $200.  Then we drove to the bank, where I gave him a bank check for the plane.  Finally I dropped him at the airport so he could catch a flight back home.    We had no written contract, just a hand shake before we started the PPI.  In a similar way, I bought my previous plane from a retired American Airlines pilot. The difference is he only flew it 150 miles from Houston.

 

Along the way, I also talked to a few folks who sounded like they had nice planes.  But they were unreasonable in some way.  --You know you should walk away  when they don't want to negotiate on the price and say that they aren't going to fix any un-airworth items because there aren't any.

 

 

So, for this guy, I would probably walk away.  But if you really want the plane, give him one last chance.  Be firm, and tell him he has a deal if he can have the plane at your mechanic in one week, on a day that works for you and your mechanic.  Otherwise, your moving on.  Tell him getting the plane there and getting home is his problem to solve. 

 

Also, don't worry about what you have "invested" in the plane so far.  I had a PPI done on two prior planes and I walked from them. It sucks, but sometimes its the best thing to do.

[Marauder]

Based on your follow up post, I would walk if not run at this point. This is a guy who doesn't have seller's remorse, he is a guy who is trying to sell on his terms. I agree with Tom & Erik, this has a potential to get real ugly when things pop up during the pre-buy (trust me, they will).

If you have other planes you are considering, I would telling the selling agent you are pursuing them and let him break the news to the owner. It may be a wake-up call for this guy.

The broker's comments would be enough for me. They deal with all kinds of personalities and his decision to walk, should be a warning flag.