Run up, take off, and cruise questions for M20C

[Devious Rhesus]

Howdy all!  New Mooney owner, and new to complex aircraft, so a few questions!

 

I'm flying a 1964 M20C

 

The POH and various online checklists / forums have listed different RPM's for the run up checks.  Since the POH was published 50 years ago, I guess the wisdom behind it can improve...  What RPM should I be doing my checks at?

 

What flap position is common for take off and landing?  Most of what I have seen lists 15 degrees for all takeoff conditions, and not much info for landing.

 

What RPM should I be looking for at full-power on take off, mixture rich full prop, at my 50' ASL airport?

 

The instructor I am training with has me bring the power to "25 squared" at 500' AGL for climb, and has be always square up the numbers for cruise settings.  Is this appropriate?

 

Thanks so much for your help!

[rob]

I had a 65 M20C. I did the runup at 1700, mainly.

I usually used a couple pumps of the flaps on takeoff and full flaps on landing (one pump on downwind, one on base and the rest on final). Though I occasionally strayed from this as conditions warranted.

I climbed out at WOT and prop full forward (2700RPM I believe) I would generaly climb around 500-700 depending on terrain ATC and my mood.

I ran it WOT and 2500RPM in cruise. It was almost never square, and I really didn't care what it was. 2500 was a happy number and my prop/airframe was silly smooth and WOT was the fastest she went!

I leaned aggressively.

[Hank]

There are several M20-C Owners Manuals in the Download section. Mine says to run-up at 1700.

I set power using the Performance Tables in the back; mine is posted as 1970 M20-C electric.

My normal takeoff is Flaps Up, trim at the top of the mark, WOT, Full RPM, Full Rich and I do not reduce power until reaching cruise altitude. Look up Target EGT for more information.

In the pattern I drop Takeoff Flaps on downwind then gear opposite landing point. I'll add more on final if needed.

There are many strong opinions here about flap usage; the Search box is your friend, but not necessarily everything you find. .

[Jerry 5TJ]

The POH and various online checklists / forums have listed different RPM's for the run up checks.  Since the POH was published 50 years ago, I guess the wisdom behind it can improve...  What RPM should I be doing my checks at?

The POH says 1700 but what you're mainly looking for is drop on one mag, carb heat drop, slight increase with leaning and exercise of the propeller.   I think the RPM is not too critical.

What flap position is common for take off and landing?  Most of what I have seen lists 15 degrees for all takeoff conditions, and not much info for landing.

One pump for take off.   Full flaps (about 3-4 strokes) for normal landing.  Less flap if you have a heck of a cross wind.   The POH does not offer much guidance.

What RPM should I be looking for at full-power on take off, mixture rich full prop, at my 50' ASL airport?

The prop should go to 2700 RPM if the governor is set correctly. 

The instructor I am training with has me bring the power to "25 squared" at 500' AGL for climb, and has be always square up the numbers for cruise settings.  Is this appropriate?

Lots of debate on this topic in the last 60 years or so.   I generally don't mess with the engine until above 1000' AGL.

[Skywarrior]

My Bravo's POH specifies 2000 RPM for runup, but several instructors have advised me to use only 1700 or 1800 RPM, to reduce the chance of drawing rocks into the prop, causing nicks. Also, since you're not moving, a lower RPM reduces the chance of overheating (well, for a little while, anyway). (The best way to check your mags is to do it in flight.)

 

For general engine advice, I recommend articles/webinars by Deakin and Busch.

[rbridges]

I'm kinda with everyone else.  1700 for run up in my '65 O-360.  I typically keep the throttle and mixture full in until I reach altitude and then pull the RPM back to 2400.  

 

From what I've read, oversquaring the rpm and MP is not harmful.  If your engine runs smooth at 2500, I see no harm in it.  

[jrwilson]

I do 1700 for mags and 1900 for prop. 2 pumps (15 degrees) for take and full flaps for landing. I pull prop back to 2550 for takeoff and leave manifold alone. I go to about 2450 for cruise on prop and whatever I can get for manifold.

1963 m20c

[WardHolbrook]

I run the checks at the RPM specified in the POH. In most Mooney M20Cs I believe that is 1700 RPM, but some later models may bump that up to 1900 or even 2000 RPM. I'm not a big fan of doing routine inflight mag checks - too much chance of accidentally switching the engine off. I also do a quick mag check prior to shutdown at the end of the flight. 

 

As far as takeoff and climb in a M20C goes...

 

Takeoff WOT and 2700 RPM and lean if appropriate.

 

Climb at WOT and 2700 RPM and leaned for best power. Climb at 100 (or 120 if hot).

[carusoam]

(1) Ask your flight instructor about his stance on changing power settings again...?

This is not Mooney specific....

It was thought that engine failures typically occur when making a change to MP after lift-off...

Waiting to be at altitude where you can turn back to the airport and make a safe landing is a good idea. 1,000' AGL?

(2) get a hold of the most recent POH for your C. You can write your own checklists using this as a resource.

(3) even newer POHs won't cover modern theory of full power climbs to altitude.

(4) climbs to altitude in a C are often selected for improved cooling. 120mph IAS is a number typically used for a combination of speed, both horizontal and vertical while maintaining Ok CHTs...

(5) get a JPI if you don't have one.

(6) get a FF monitor if you don't have one.

(7) read as much as you can....

I am not a CFI, but I used to fly a C...

Best regards,

-a-

[robert7467]

I have an 8000' runway I do:

 

No flaps on takeoff (unless shorter field)

Full Power Climb

25/26 or 25/25 Cruise leaned for around 10-11 GPH

17-1800 RPM for runup.

 

I used to do cut the power back 25/26 for climb and run at 22/23 but I had one cylinder that was not breaking in properly and my mechanic told me to run the crap out of it. Our engines are high performance and they like to be ran.

 

Since using the higher power settings, my cylinder is broken in, plugs do not foul and I am able to go faster.

 

For now, I would just do what your instructor says and pull the power back to make him happy. My instructor has over 8k hrs of instructing and thats what he did.

 

Basically, there is a 1000 ways to skin a cat and all methods from the experts are acceptable.

[gsxrpilot]

Howdy all!  New Mooney owner, and new to complex aircraft, so a few questions!

 

I'm flying a 1964 M20C

 

The POH and various online checklists / forums have listed different RPM's for the run up checks.  Since the POH was published 50 years ago, I guess the wisdom behind it can improve...  What RPM should I be doing my checks at?

 

I use 1800 to cycle the prop once, then back off to 1700 for mag checks and carb heat check.

 

What flap position is common for take off and landing?  Most of what I have seen lists 15 degrees for all takeoff conditions, and not much info for landing.

 

I use flaps depending on conditions, runway length, crosswind, etc. But if I use flaps, it's two pumps for take off. (But check with the aileron. Takeoff flap setting should be equal to full down aileron deflection.) If I use flaps on landing its usually full flaps and only deployed once the runway is made. 

 

What RPM should I be looking for at full-power on take off, mixture rich full prop, at my 50' ASL airport?

 

2700 should be right.

 

The instructor I am training with has me bring the power to "25 squared" at 500' AGL for climb, and has be always square up the numbers for cruise settings.  Is this appropriate?

 

I think 25 squared is an old wives tale. I run WOT and 2500 from about 500' AGL through the climb, cruise, descent, and all the way back to the pattern.

 

Thanks so much for your help!

[WardHolbrook]

It was thought that engine failures typically occur when making a change to MP after lift-off...

 

I used to think that as well until more than one engine guru set me straight. Like running over square, it is an Old Pilots Tale.

[Andy95W]

I do 1700 for mags and 1900 for prop. 2 pumps (15 degrees) for take and full flaps for landing. I pull prop back to 2550 for takeoff and leave manifold alone. I go to about 2450 for cruise on prop and whatever I can get for manifold.

1963 m20c

+1

Exactly what I do too.

[carusoam]

For the record...

The only engine 'failure' I experienced was a stuck/bent valve. It happened while climbing out.

I didn't make any changes to throttle prior to the event.

Hence, the suggestion to ask the current thoughts on that situation...

Best regards,

-a-

[cliffy]

The O-360 is rated at 2700 RPM no time limit. I use 1 1/2 pumps on the flaps for T/O and full power until I get to cruise altitude. I use 2600 RPM for cruise as mine is smoothest there and full MP, I lean aggressively also. Lycoming says you can use peak EGT to lean at and below 75% power. I use full flaps for landing  Just my way after 1500 hrs in my 64 C. Speed control on landing is the most important factor in using your Mooney. Too fast and you'll porpoise all the way down the runway :-) Enjoy the ride

[carusoam]

Cliffy has pointed out nicely that there is a science behind all of this.

But don't expect to porpoise all the way down the runway, that would be too good...

Three bounces usually ends up with a prop strike as each bounce gets worse than the first.

Was there any consideration for Mooney specific training?

Best regards,

-a-

[WardHolbrook]

For the record...

The only engine 'failure' I experienced was a stuck/bent valve. It happened while climbing out.

I didn't make any changes to throttle prior to the event.

Hence, the suggestion to ask the current thoughts on that situation...

Best regards,

-a-

 

I don't disagree with the logic. I still tell students (and myself) not to make any power reductions until you're at the point where you'd be willing to accept an engine failure. For me, it's usually a function of altitude and/or time. (Cleaned up and climbing through 1000 ft or 2000 ft and/or 4 or 5 minutes if I'm flying something with turbochargers. If I'm flying a normally aspirated airplane, then it's usually WOT and whatever the POH says on the RPM.) Of my two engine failures after takeoff (one in a Mooney M20C and one in a Cessna 411) both happened when I was reducing power after takeoff. When I mentioned the "engine failure with power reduction theory" to some genuine engine gurus I was told that had nothing to do with it. I'll defer to their expertise and experience, but if something's working I don't like messing with it down low.   

[ryoder]

Do what the instructor says for now and for a checkride.

[BigTex]

Devious - Welcome to the forum!

 

One thing you need to understand is that not all Mooney's fly the same.  In fact, for the M20C's the mid-60's C's have different settings for flips, etc.  So because of this, some of the advice needs to be considered on what they're using as their point of reference.  Most of the "newer" Mooney's also don't have the old Dog House baffling.  Unless your bird's been modified, you've got the old dog house and thus, you have to be very careful to not exceed 400 degrees for your CHT temperature.  The trick to keep your engine from exceeding 400 degrees for CHT, is to accelerate to 120 MPH ASAP.  In my plane I have to reduce RPM's to around 2500 at 1000' AGL to keep CHT's in line but you might not have to.

 

As for RPM settings for my run-up, I use around 1800 RPM.  I don't worry about it too much as I'm more interested in EGT changes and RPM drops than nailing a given RPM.  I have found that under 1800, cycling the prop doesn't work well.

 

As for flip settings.... I'm not touching that one!

[Wakeup]

I'm enjoying reading all the advise. I'm a newbie with a total of 150 hours and 75 of them are in my M20B. I'm looking forward to trying a few different techniques and seeing how I like them. Flying is just like anesthesia. Always a new trick to try out. I flew 25 squared yesterday at 3,000 feet after riding in a newer Mooney and he said he always flew that way at lower altitude ?? I did enjoy the 175 mph cruise speed. ) Troy

[bonal]

1700 for the mag and carb heat 1900 for the prop and when cycling the prop I was advised to just a couple hundred rpm drop before pushing back in and not to do the big rpm drop I hear so many others do. 2 pumps for the flaps on takeoff also if it's hot or at a high field I will set at 2000rpm and adjust mixture to best rpm. Climb is at WOT 2700 all the way to level off between 120 and 130 mph depending on temps. Cruise is at 2500 and at the altitude I fly I seldom see more than 23 MP at WOT. Unless I'm landing on something under 3000 ft runway I only set flaps to takeoff position in case I have to go around.

Welcome to Mooney now you must provide some pictures of your new wings.

Mine is a converted 1964 D same year as yours.

[jetdriven]

I used to think that as well until more than one engine guru set me straight. Like running over square, it is an Old Pilots Tale.

 

Then improve safety, don't reduce MP or RPM after takeoff.

[moodychief]

1700 mag check, 1900-2000 cycle prop 2-3 times, 2 pumps flaps for takeoff, Climb WOT, 120 IAS for climb and cooling, 1 pump flaps downwind, 1 pump base. 13" and two pumps of flaps trimmed for a 85 IAS descent usually maintains glideslope. No flaps in strong crosswinds for takeoff or landing. Adjust no-flap speeds for wind component. Slowly reduce power when crossing threshold and gently flare and try to hold 2-3 inches off runway and let it settle onto runway naturally. Don't rush anything.

Short field landing, 75 IAS final, two pumps flaps. I was taught by a bush pilot to never use more landing flaps than those used for soft field TO. In case of flap retraction failure you can still go around if necessary.

[Hank]

I was on a 3000' field for seven years. No flap takeoffs unless heavy or on grass. Takeoff flaps until final, then per Owners Manual, Flaps as desired. I hold 90 mph downwind and base, roll level on final at 85 mph; my target for short final is 75 mph - 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross.

I climb WOT/2700 all the way to cruise. My most common power settings are below:

Burger run @ 3000': 23/2300

Short trip or level off, 4000-6500: 22/2400

Longer cruise, 7000 & up: 2500; I back off throttle until MP needle moves, to disengage the auto enrich feature of the carb.

Your mileage may vary.

When I use flaps for takeoff, I raise them once I clear whatever obstacle worried me into using them. I also raise gear soon, once I know I'm climbing and see positive rate on the IVSI.

P.S.--MAPA teaches the following equation for setting power. Compare against your Performance Tables and adjust if needed:

. MP + RPM/100 = 47 is 75% power. Reduce sum by 3, power goes down by 5%.

So I often fly around 46, except when high enough that I can't make 21" anymore.

[HRM]

I'm flying a 1964 M20C

 

I fly an E, a Super 21 no less; however, some of what I do may be apropos to your mission.

 

The POH and various online checklists / forums have listed different RPM's for the run up checks.  Since the POH was published 50 years ago, I guess the wisdom behind it can improve...  What RPM should I be doing my checks at?

 

I do my checks at 2000.

 

What flap position is common for take off and landing?  Most of what I have seen lists 15 degrees for all takeoff conditions, and not much info for landing.

 

I very rarely use flaps.

 

What RPM should I be looking for at full-power on take off, mixture rich full prop, at my 50' ASL airport?

 

I recommend you punch it and fiddle with it later, after leveling out. That said, if you are moving towards IFR you will want to be more cognizant of speed and power, but even under IFR conditions you want to get up, out and away quickly and not worry about the engine until things are stable.

 

The instructor I am training with has me bring the power to "25 squared" at 500' AGL for climb, and has be always square up the numbers for cruise settings.  Is this appropriate?

 

Not necessarily. CFI's, contrary to what they think, are not gods. Nor are they all knowing. Your CFI should be more like a coach and less like an authoritarian. If they insist that it is their way or else, get a different one. Once you become one with your Mooney you will understand what I mean.