Buying a plane past TBO

[manoflamancha]

Looking at a 262 with 2000 hours appears to be in good shape at fair price but main concern is TBO is 1800. Would you still consider purchase of a Mooney way past TBO?

[larryb]

Why not? It's all a matter of pricing. The only downside is planning for some downtime soon after purchase. Some like a runout plane so you can get the engine of your choice. Personally I wanted to concentrate on flying so I tried to find a mid time example.

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[Danb]

I ts not a bad idea if it priced accordingly. Fly the crap out of it while learning the plane then use the saved money for a new engine.

[manoflamancha]

Thanks well the good news is from what I gather a 262 is almost a 252 from firewall forward except for the dual 24v alternators.

[M016576]

Absolutely... So long as you price the engine as runout. Could be a great deal: you might get another couple hundred hours out of the motor before you need an overhaul, and get to choose where and when to have it done. It's a great piece of leverage for a buyer.

Edit: I recommed reading (by googling) Mike Busch's Pelicans perch articles relating to engine overhaul- that motor, if it's not showing signs relating to eminent failure (valve wobble, compression drops, making metal), could go on for much longer than the Recommended OH number.

[manoflamancha]

I priced out the 262 at 65-80k on bluebook and retail site. It has IFR non Garmin GPS and I'd need to add either a Garmin 430W or 650 plus mode s transponder to comply with the FAA 2020 ADSB mandate in addition to possible engine reserve. Other than that the plane looks awesome!

[DS1980]

Edit: I recommed reading (by googling) Mike Busch's Pelicans perch articles relating to engine overhaul- that motor, if it's not showing signs relating to eminent failure (valve wobble, compression drops, making metal), could go on for much longer than the Recommended OH number.

You may find a search for John Deakin's Pelican Perch articles to be more fruitful

[DAVIDWH]

My IO550 flew flawlessly 450 hours past TBO.

 

Just discount the price of the overhaul on purchase and add about 20% for misc.(At least)

 

Ie, freight, prop and governor, engine mounts, labor, new hose kit, muffler and so on.

[manoflamancha]

Thanks I will ask Top Gun what a major overhaul and new engine costs for a 262. Now on the 262 would that be a new 252 engine ?

[M016576]

You may find a search for John Deakin's Pelican Perch articles to be more fruitful

Ahhhh you're correct- Pelicans perch is john deakin.

The article I was referring to was Mike Busch's "savvy aviator #45: how risky is it going past TBO."

I apologize- I read both of their articles- I must be getting old.

[carusoam]

Please share more of your thought process...

My thoughts are, it sounds like a big project for first time ownership....

A 231 is a full time learning experience if you are supposed to go to work five days per week in a non-aviation environment.

When buying a K, it helps to know the details and why one particular model fits your requirements better than the other.

Look up 231, 252 and 262s. Engine block, turbo controllers and inter coolers are nice devices. Having to OH them is expensive.

Look to see how old the cylinders are. Turbo'd engines are able to use cylinders faster than N/A, depending on the owner.

If they got changed out 1000 hours ago, they may need to be changed out again.

Why is the owner deciding to sell now? He seems to have gotten his money's worth out of the engine.

The last annual may have turned up some news about the engine?

Flying a plane past TBO when you flew the first 1800 hours, is one thing...

Jumping on this horse with no experience under your belt. It would be hard to tell the difference of what is normal vs degraded performance of an engine...

My first plane ate an exhaust valve on take-off within my first ten hours of ownership. My CFI was still with me at the time. Everything worked well enough at sea level... Another of our MS pilots got to land in some trees. Fortunately, she is still with us but her plane is named Maggie II.

This is not a good investment for most people...

It's still a quirky investment for a pilot with years of experience, or a mechanic that knows planes and engines well...

Your probability of having an off field landing based on your judgement is starting to increase...

If this plane belonged to your friend that you could ask many questions over time, that would be different.

A good PPI is important, but here, they will tell you something like "it is past TBO, what do you expect?"

The longer I write the more I think, buy it with a run-out price, start the OH process immediately.

Have hard quotes in place prior to purchase.

Is another $50k in your budget?

When it sounds too good...

You know?

-a-

[M016576]

Please share more of your thought process...

My thoughts are, it sounds like a big project for first time ownership....

A 231 is a full time learning experience if you are supposed to go to work five days per week in a non-aviation environment.

When buying a K, it helps to know the details and why one particular model fits your requirements better than the other.

Look up 231, 252 and 262s. Engine block, turbo controllers and inter coolers are nice devices. Having to OH them is expensive.

Look to see how old the cylinders are. Turbo'd engines are able to use cylinders faster than N/A, depending on the owner.

If they got changed out 1000 hours ago, they may need to be changed out again.

Why is the owner deciding to sell now? He seems to have gotten his money's worth out of the engine.

The last annual may have turned up some news about the engine?

Flying a plane past TBO when you flew the first 1800 hours, is one thing...

Jumping on this horse with no experience under your belt. It would be hard to tell the difference of what is normal vs degraded performance of an engine...

My first plane ate an exhaust valve on take-off within my first ten hours of ownership. My CFI was still with me at the time. Everything worked well enough at sea level... Another of our MS pilots got to land in some trees. Fortunately, she is still with us but her plane is named Maggie II.

This is not a good investment for most people...

It's still a quirky investment for a pilot with years of experience, or a mechanic that knows planes and engines well...

Your probability of having an off field landing based on your judgement is starting to increase...

If this plane belonged to your friend that you could ask many questions over time, that would be different.

A good PPI is important, but here, they will tell you something like "it is past TBO, what do you expect?"

The longer I write the more I think, buy it with a run-out price, start the OH process immediately.

Have hard quotes in place prior to purchase.

Is another $50k in your budget?

When it sounds too good...

You know?

-a-

Where did you get the first time ownership from, I missed that.

May be relevant, may not, depending in the pilots experience.

Like I mentioned above: price it as run out and a fair deal can be had.

Annuals may or may not find engine problems: an oil change is almost as thorough (you just don't get the compression check).

The important thing thing about an airframe is just that: the airframe. All engines will be run out at some point.

-a-: I don't know how you can write in clip so consistently: I feel like I'm auditioning to be a Hemingway plagiarist!

[carusoam]

Jobe, (did I get this right?)

The OP listed the planes he is renting...

The OP has indicated he is not familiar with the various K models.

The OP is not familiar with how ragged this plane may actually be.

We have lost a TC'd Mooney here (MS) during transition training, recently.

The OP's request may have been misinterpreted by me.

It sounds like trying to get more plane than is currently in the budget.

I am a known member of the CB club.

But I am clearly not a fan of taking ownership of a run-out TC'd engine and expect to fly on with it, based on condition.

If it were my son doing this, we would have a long discussion about risk management and how it could be done better.

If the OP was telling you about the various K models he had flown, and why he preferred the 252 over the others. I would pat him on the back for knowing what he is getting into...

I'm not getting that warm fuzzy feeling. Patrick is calling...

What is the risk of running out of HP unexpectedly? This is the question that pilot has to have answer for all the time.

It just isn't any of my business to tell a person what not to do?

The key thing about the writings regarding running beyond TBO is they don't take into consideration a change in operation and maintenance that is likely with the change of ownership.

Maybe, I'm way off base here... I hope so.

Now the OP has a handful of new things to consider...

Best regards,

-a-

[manoflamancha]

My biggest concern besides safety is getting an unexpected 50k bill the first couple of years of buying a plane. I've flown non turbo Mooney like 201 and M20F but little experience with turbo charged models.

[M016576]

My biggest concern besides safety is getting an unexpected 50k bill the first couple of years of buying a plane. I've flown non turbo Mooney like 201 and M20F but little experience with turbo charged models.

I would say that if you buy that mooney from the other post, you could expect a 50K bill in the first couple years, probably more, depending on the first prebuy/annual.

All of -a-'s points are valid- a TC'd aircraft is more temperamental than a NA one.

I'm of the mentality, though, that you buy the aircraft for your mission if you're getting into ownership. If that means a TC'd mooney, then don't buy an E model hoping to make it work- wait for a solid K or M. But really take a hard look at that mission. If you buy a K or M and your mission *really* is one for a J, you'll spend much extra in avgas, oil and parts for the pleasure of flying that K or M and only achieving a marginal time gain (assuming your target distance is in that J sweet spot... 200-300ish NM)

But the original question of this thread was for a run out motor: and I firmly believe that if you find a solid airframe with a run out motor, and price it like the motor is run out, you can have a good, or at least satisfactory deal on your hands. But recognize that you *will* at some point need to overhaul that motor, and that point will probably be within a couple years and potentially right away. Expect that expense when negotiating the price.

Mike Busch makes some good points about flying (turbo) motors past TBO in his article that I referenced above. Part of what -a- referenced above was "do you know the motor's history." In the case of the one on that 262, probably not, but a couple hour test flight and oil change / scoping a cylinder may help you figure it out a bit better. Personally, I'd like to see engine monitor data for at least the last 100-200 hours on the motor if I'm going to buy one and run it past TBO- that would really shine some light on the motors health.

As for the safety factor that -a- is alluding to:

new and old motors fail, as do NA motors and turbine motors, sometimes catastrophically. It's a sad fact of flying. Sometimes props depart the aircraft too. Sometimes aircraft break up in mid flight, and sometimes pilots stall them into an unrecoverable approach (or departure) turn spin. Flying GA is more dangerous than driving a car according to the NTSB reports, but -a- is right: mitigate the risk the best we can based on your skill, mission and environmentals and you can find the safety level that you need to accept that risk.

Also, I apologize, -a- that jab at the end of my last post about your formatting wasn't called for. I enjoy your posts and their content and can always recognize their form and quality. Your posts are thought provoking and that's a great way to foster constructive debate and to help get all the facts on the table.

[DS1980]

I apologize- I read both of their articles- I must be getting old.

Good advise as they both know what they are talking about.

 

I think the OP wants an F or J model, not a K though.

[aviatoreb]

A runout (whatever model airplane) is considered by some to be ideal if it is priced accordingly.  Used engines are always a little bit spooky since you never know if it is rusting and pitting inside on the other guys watch. Were they running it regularly or letting it sit for 2months at a time? (Or a year at a time).  I am meticulous about running my airplane as close to at least once per week (usually more, rarely less), but the thing is - I only started ownership once it had 750 hours on it.  So who knows if my now 1285hr engine will go the distance since what damage was done before I took ownership?  Fingers crossed eh.

 

Often even an owner who spends years treating treating their airplane engine right and running it regularly, toward the end for whatever reason, slacks off, and this is why they sell as they finally come to terms that they don't use it like they used to.  Does that take 1 year, 2 years, 5 years?  You will likely see signs of that recent decreased activity in the log books.

 

So there is a lot to be said for a run out that's priced accordingly since then you get to start out almost right away with a new motor that you choose all the overhaul options as you wish, break it in right, and treat it right as you see fit for its whole life.

 

What is priced accordingly?  If it is a 50k engine overhaul, then it will cost about 10k to do the removal and reinstall process and replaces hoses and such, so roughly 60k.  I should think that the airplane should be priced roughly 30-35k less than a comparable airplane with an 800-1000hr engine on it.  So call it 35k (some say that the owner then should eat the cost of a new overhaul, 50k - but I find that to be unrealistic, since in that case, they should and could just overhaul the engine and sell the airplane at a much greater cost with a zero time).

 

Don't forget, any airplane, when you buy it will likely cost 10 to 20k in the first year or two as you shake out various maintenance issues to your own standard.

 

So for a run out, only buy if you can afford to put aside 50-70k for general maintenance plus a new engine.  That's my take.  But if you can afford that, then in this case a run out in an otherwise tip-top airframe with good avionics etc is almost ideal.

[Bravoman]

I agree with Anthony. From a risk management perspective I would think it is ok as long as the risks associated with the situation are properly factored into your flying, and that's only if the oil analysis, compressions and all other relevant inspection of the engine were of acceptable parameters. For me that would mean no flying in the clag(vfr flying only) and no night flying. Both of which reduce your odds of a survivable off field landing if the engine decides it has had enough.

Good luck on your potential purchase. Regards, Frank

[Ftlausa]

Having purchased my J within the last year, which looked nearly pristine at the time of purchase as I though possible, I can tell you that you need to have a significant reserve for unexpected fixes.  My plane was well cared for, but I have still had to spend quite a bit on a series of unexpected repairs.  I can only imagine what will pop up on plane past TBO.  I would not be surprised if the owner of the plane you are looking at deferred a lot of maintenance knowing he was going to sell.  As recent first time buyer myself, I would tell you to go into this very carefully and don't spend all your money on the purchase, you are going to need some for repairs, and with the plane you are looking at, an engine probably sooner than you are hoping.  Owning a plane can be waaay more expensive than renting.      

[LANCECASPER]

You mentioned in another thread that the plane is going to be financed, a few thoughts  . . .

 

Engines are such a huge percentage of overall costs on a used K or M model, that many times the math doesn't work out. Putting a new engine on most will keep you upside down in the airplane for many years to come. I guess the exception might be that if the other 3 of the 4 major things to consider (engine, avionics, paint and interior) are exactly the way you want them and you can get the airplane for what its really worth, not what the owner may think it's worth, the math may come closer to working out.

 

The bank, knowing the engine time, may not be willing to approve the loan. If there's an engine which can't be paid for that needs to be replaced in the hear future, people are known to walk away from an airplane if it's financed. However, knowing up front the situation they may also be willing to roll in the cost of a reman into the loan at the time of  purchase. At least at that point you know what the monthly fixed costs will be with a "new" engine.

[piperpainter]

I wouldn't ask top gun for the cost.  I would ask an actual overhaul shop like Lycon or one stop down in Oceanside, CA. I'm sure that top gun is gonna have a massive mark up cause they are " So special." Kinda like the redic $110+shop rate..just my $.02

[M016576]

I wouldn't ask top gun for the cost. I would ask an actual overhaul shop like Lycon or one stop down in Oceanside, CA. I'm sure that top gun is gonna have a massive mark up cause they are " So special." Kinda like the redic $110+shop rate..just my $.02

Seriously... Those MSC's... Beware the shop with a spit shined floor...

Don't get me wrong, Top Gun and LASAR have loads upon loads of mooney knowledge and know how, but 40 bucks an hour more than the other shops sure is a tall order... Plus the cost of traveling to and from...

Edit- but sometimes they are the guys with the parts or know-how to do it right!

[manoflamancha]

Thanks guys,

I'm going to pass on the plane past TBO even though what Busch of Savvy says may be true it's risk I don't want to

take at this point in time. I'll keep saving and looking for a well maintained low time engine 231.

Scott

[M20F]

TBO is a misnomer at best as is what an overhaul is. You can fly an engine for thousands of hours past TBO but you are probably going to replace cylinders and accessories during that time period. Really the only thing that is going to cause the case to be split is the cam wearing down, true a crank can go but odds are the cam will go first. Compression check and inspection of the crank/cam is going to give you an idea of how long you can go. Generally you can see pitting/wear and other issues associated with the plane sitting.

Personally I would never pull a whole engine off and redo it. You can monitor all the parts easy enough (exhaust valves and compressions on the cylinder) and replace as needed. When you pull a cylinder to can check the internals easily enough. When it comes time to do the cam I would keep the existing cylinders if they are good. On a Lycoming as example to overhaul you need to replace exhaust valves among other things. If you have 4 cylinders with 100hr each as example and the cam goes are you really going to pay the expense to replace the exhaust valves just so you can zero the TBO?

The only place TBO has any meaning is for resale which if you don't intend on doing then it has little impact.

[WardHolbrook]

Go for it, just have a workable Plan B in place should you find yourself facing unexpected major engine expenses in the next year or two. I'm sure the current owner will say that TBO doesn't matter and that the engine is running just fine. That may or may not be true, but on paper the engine is run out and that should be factored into the asking price of the airplane. I keep saying this, but after an engine reaches TBO, that engine doesn't owe you or anyone anything. In the real world of Part 91 operations, TBO is essentially meaningless and pretty much useful only as a budgetary factor. That's not to say that you should plan on exceeding TBO, sometimes those extra hours can come at a significant cost if it causes some expensive internal components to wear beyond limits. 

 

Who said that a high-performance, turbocharged single can't be someone's first airplane? That makes zero sense. The key to operating any airplane like that is the same whether you own it or not - proper initial and recurrent training and proper and timely ongoing maintenance and a budget that allows for both. Those are readily available to a newbie owner so all it really takes is the budget to handle it.