xrs135 Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm coming up on my first annual inspection this February since owning my 68' M20C. I'm based out of Reno, NV. Should I take my plane to Lake Aero, Top Gun, or somewhere else for my annual? I feel like I can't go wrong taking it to a very reputable shop the first time around. I know I'll pay more, but at least they both have extensive knowledge related to Mooney's whereas Joe Bob A&P may or may not. Thoughts/opinions on either place or elsewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Definitely take it to a Mooney shop, I took mine to a MSC. I let my local mechanic do the light work but having a 2nd shop go over your plane can't be a bad thing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If it were me, it would depend somewhat on the shop that did the last annual and pre-buy. If, as an example, the last annual was done at a MSC then I'd be comfortable in taking it to a shop with reasonable Mooney experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think it depends on how much you plan on getting involved and how mechanically inclined you are. If you are going to drop it off and tell them to call you when it’s done then go to a MSC. If you are going to be deeply involved, can read a maintenance manual and willing to learn many things about the Mooney airframe the stick with your local A&P/IA who will let you participate. You might not save many $ but there is plenty you can learn about your plane during an annual even if all you do is open it up, clean it, lube all the pivot points, change the oil and apply some type of corrosion protection. It’s not rocket science only attention to details and being methodical to check everything that needs to be checked. When I did my first annual on the very first plane I owned (M20E) 4 years ago my IA allowed me to be involved and I dove in to the deep end. It was not a 1 week annual due to some of the items we found and to the learning curve. I learned many things about the Mooney and plane maintenance in general. We changed rod ends and rigged the flight controls with the travel boards and the plane never flew better. However, in the end I truly believe I got an annual as good as any MSC if not better. Some of the things my IA insists on doing I hear MSC don’t even do and according to my IA they should be. Maybe over kill and I hate to disassemble something that is working just to put it back together but they are checked. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 What ever you decide I recommend one that allows an owner assist you will learn so much and you will be present to see first Hand any squaks that come up. Also there is a lot of time consuming things like panels and cowel removals that if you do will save real money. I know Lake Aero permits this and they are great to work with. Whatever you decide be prepared for any thing. I wish you good luck and a happy annual. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I agree with the preceding two posts, assuming you are somewhat mechanically inclined and have the time. So much of the annual involves simple actions like removing panels and basic lubrication, you'll be pleased to find out how much you can do. Have someone familiar with Mooneys show you the high risk areas for corrosion and you can keep an eye out all year long, not just once/year. The C models are very basic machines. Their 1940's technology is pretty easy to understand. Participating in the annual will give you confidence and insight into your aircraft. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I have a very knowledgeable and conscientious A&P but as I do more of the work on my own annual in my hanger I find stuff that he might not. Small example... after the last annual I notice that when doing the preflight "controls free and full travel" check that the aelerons and elevator linkage moves noticably smoother with less force required. There are many Heim bearings on our Mooneys, love that Tri-flow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgreene61 Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 You're not that far from LASAR. They did my 1st annual on N1162G. They are very detailed to say the least. Gave me peace of mind. They also allow owner assist. Location: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.037528,-122.924677,14z Website: http://www.lasar.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If your plane has not seen an MSC OR someone very knowledgeable on Mooneys it might be a good idea to use an MSC the first time. If it has had "field" annuals by a variety of A&Ps you might have a large bill to pay but get peace of mind that it is done correctly. I did my pre-buy at Top Gun and they found the tail hinge loose so that saved me money on the purchase. But, if you can find a Mooney expert to do the work it may be just as good as they are not that complicated but like all airplanes they have their idiosyncrasies. It comes down to how good was your pre-buy inspection? Did they look at tail hinge wear, control surface rigging, landing gear rigging and over center torque with the proper tools, spar cap corrosion, rod end wear, landing gear donut age and wear, proper lubrication, cabin tubing rust under the windows and all the other Mooney specific items or was it a "change the oil, check the compression pre-buy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrs135 Posted November 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 The last annual was done at a very reputable (non-MSC) shop, but not Mooney "experts" by any means. I'd LOVE to get involved and do an owner assisted annual... I just literally don't have time to dedicate to it this time around. I'm thinking the best course of action is to take to to LASAR or Top Gun this year, and have it looked over thoroughly to give me piece of mind. The following year, I can figure out how to logistically do the owner assisted annual and learn as much as possible. It's definitely not the cheapest option going with LASAR or Top Gun... but at least you know it's being done right. I assume both places are relatively comparable in price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanti Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 IMO, since your' prebuy was not done by Mooney experts, you should definitely go to a shop with a well-known reputation for specializing in Mooneys. I have been involved with several Mooney prebuys where the owner swore that his A&P was "just as good as a MSC" or "used to be an A&P in the Air Force" yaddah yaddah and the quality of the inspections were all over the place. If you use a shop with a nationally known reputation for Mooney work, I think you maximize the chances that those eccentric Mooney "gotchas" get looked at. best Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Some advice: I am living through the agony now with a MSC....get in writing when the start date will be and the estimated completion date. I am at day 19 since dropping the plane off and not a wrench turned.... I cannot take the plane away due to now needing a ferry permit because past annual drop dead date.... Yes its true..... I will not disclose the name of the shop....I am the one with everything to lose....at least now anyway...... MSC in a name to me means nothing........absolutely nothing....don't fall into the trap......being a MSC is totally bullshit....go by a shops reputation....not just because it says MSC.... Oh by the way this is my first annual as well.......Mooney corp has been notified and tracking the situation with me I thought I was doing the right thing by spending the extra money and trusting Mooney by allowing this shop to say they are a MSC. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Some advice: I am living through the agony now with a MSC....get in writing when the start date will be and the estimated completion date. I am at day 19 since dropping the plane off and not a wrench turned.... I cannot take the plane away due to now needing a ferry permit because past annual drop dead date.... Yes its true..... I will not disclose the name of the shop....I am the one with everything to lose....at least now anyway...... MSC in a name to me means nothing........absolutely nothing....don't fall into the trap......being a MSC is totally bullshit....go by a shops reputation....not just because it says MSC.... Oh by the way this is my first annual as well.......Mooney corp has been notified and tracking the situation with me I thought I was doing the right thing by spending the extra money and trusting Mooney by allowing this shop to say they are a MSC. You can still get a ferry permit, not a problem. See http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=3161588783001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 You can still get a ferry permit, not a problem. See http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=3161588783001 Already spoke to the FSDO,,,it is a 24 to 48 hour process in which I will have to leave my plane in the hands of this MSC and hope they don't tamper with it..... Would require a preflight inspection by my mechanic prior to the permit application and 48 hours later almost a complete tare down inspection to see if they f***ed with it.... plus overnight charges for me and the mechanic..... Being an MSC means nothing people...listen up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I can only say I would make time! this is your most important annual you really should be envolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert C. Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 Some advice: I am living through the agony now with a MSC....get in writing when the start date will be and the estimated completion date. I am at day 19 since dropping the plane off and not a wrench turned.... Yes its true..... I will not disclose the name of the shop....I am the one with everything to lose....at least now anyway...... MSC in a name to me means nothing........absolutely nothing....don't fall into the trap......being a MSC is totally bullshit....go by a shops reputation....not just because it says MSC.... Yep, sage advice. I had a pre-buy and then the annual done by a MSC near Atlanta, GA. I clearly was considered a naive easy money target. After the pre-buy I had 2 weeks before I could get down there with an instructor to pick up the aircraft and start my transition training and IFR course. So I asked them to do the annual (due a month later) and install a AoA indicator. The owner professed to be completely surprised to see me show up on the agreed upon day when I arrived with my expensive instructor in tow. The annual had been done but the AoA install had barely started. It took them 3 more days during which my aircraft was shoved aside at least once (the AP told me out of earshot of the boss) for other work. We were able to use the time for some ground school but could and should have been flying. The owner then effectively blamed his assistant for the delay. I had several e-mails into her discussing the pickup date and work to be done. The AoA still isn't working even after my local mechanic took a look at it. Equally annoying after a pre-buy and an Annual: the engine runs about 100-150rpm over expected factory idle. The shop never told me about that or advised me what to do about it. 2 weeks ago i noticed that according to the logs the ELT batteries needed replacing. My local A&P opened up the ELT, presumably tested during the pre-buy and Annual. The wrong batteries were installed - upside down - when the correct batteries were installed the right way up it turns out the ELT is defective and doesn't work and needs to be replaced. I'm not using another MSC until I have vetted them thoroughly on this board and on the MAPA mailing list. My local A&P has an outstanding reputation in the local community and although he only has 2 other Mooneys he looks after at this point I trust him a lot more than a MSC I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I would think it is still not too late to get a ferry permit and move the plane. The prior owner of my plane had a similar experience in 2007 wth a MSC in the Northeast. Perhaps worse in that while your plane has not been touched, a pretty thorough examination had been done and a list of 21 discrepencies made. I presume the cowling, access panels, perhaps seats, carpets and more were off the plane. The owner and the repair shop had agreed that no work other than the 100 hour/annual inspection was to be done until authorized. The shop was instructed to put the plane back together. His home mechanic got a ferry permit and the plane was flown home where the A&P/IA did the annual. There was no doubt some cost to the experience but less than it would have been . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm not using another MSC until I have vetted them thoroughly on this board and on the MAPA mailing list. I will try to not use another MSC ever......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'm sorry to hear that a number of you have had such poor experiences with some MSC's. I think that keeping Mooney informed as to the problems and treatment you are receiving is important. mooney has little control over the business practices of the business involved. Perhaps Mooney will re-examine their relationship with the shop. As the eastern Canada MSC I'm proud to represent this fine line of aircraft. My reputation and that of the companies I represent is very important to me. Hopefully thing will improve for you. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I will try to not use another MSC ever......... I have been using the same mechanic since 1998 and although he is not part of an MSC, I trust him. For those rare times he was working through a Mooney related problem that he needed help on, he wouldn't hesitate to call Mooney or a MSC to understand a problem. I have gone to one MSC during my course of ownership and that was to have a speed mod installed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think that keeping Mooney informed as to the problems and treatment you are receiving is important. I have contacted Stacy Ellis at Mooney on the issue. He is the guy who oversees the MSC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 I'll say it again I can only say I would make time! this is your most important annual you really should be envolved. even if they would not let me do an owner assist I would park my ass next to the hangar door and watch every move they make. I have never trusted any one to work on my machines especially an airplane that I am going to bet my life and my families life on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 This happens sometimes the owner drops off his airplane and gets a bill for 9 grand. Well heck at least it's all fixed now, it's safe. No cylinder changes or anything, just a whole lotta little stuff, perhaps some shock discs.mReady to roll. It breaks down soon after, some more expensive repairs, then another 9 grand annual with new shock discs again. The annual inspection labor and lubrication is around 26 hours. Repairs are extra. Airworthiness repairs are one thing, non-airworthiness repairs are another. At any rate, make sure which category each thing goes in and make sure it has to be pre-approved by you before completing the tasks. Otherwise, it can turn into an all-you-can-eat salad buffet for the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 All of this highlights the benefits of an owner assissted annual. Staying "in the loop" during the process. Unfortunately, it requires a dedicated chunk of time from the owner. They wouldn't call them "annuals" if they were quick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 This happens sometimes the owner drops off his airplane and gets a bill for 9 grand. Well heck at least it's all fixed now, it's safe. No cylinder changes or anything, just a whole lotta little stuff, perhaps some shock discs.mReady to roll. It breaks down soon after, some more expensive repairs, then another 9 grand annual with new shock discs again. This is because most aviation businesses and most managers in aviation are totall A S S H O L E S ....very few if any businesses are capable of doing the right thing. Most lie cheat and steal. I have seen it from Cessna operations to Gulfstream charter to 121........All you can do is hope that when its your turn in the barrel that you don't get hurt or die....... You would not think it works that way in 121 but politicians and regulatory agencies are paid off for corporate interests all of the time. Have you ever heard of the cargo cutout for 121....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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