New MOONEY MODELS

[KSMooniac]

On the M20 wing, yes, there are different airfoils at the root and tips.  That choice was made by Al (I presume) and is a common design choice.  IIRC, the Columbia wing uses the same modern airfoil throughout the wing and tailors the planform to tune the drag distribution.  I don't recall if the Cirrus wing uses more than one airfoil section.  There are lots of ways to skin the aerodynamic cat... all of the choices are trade-offs when you can play with planform shape, taper, airfoil selection, twist, flaps, slats, cuffs, fences, types of ailerons, etc.

[DaV8or]

This is not quite true... there was a plan to make an RG version of the Columbia and it was lofted in such a way to make it a simple change.  In fact, the fixed gear structural arrangement was adapted from the kit-built RG design and made without the mechanism.  It would be relatively simple to add the RG capability, but in reality it doesn't really buy much more speed over the well-faired gear and lighter weight.

 

Faster is faster. Typically about 10kts faster at least. An efficient airplane tucks it's wheels. I will believe the often repeated "just as good as" argument when I see a fixed gear airplane place in the top three, in the gold sport class at Reno.

 

I think I remember hearing that Columbia gave up on retracts because of the huge additional certification headaches required. Faster and cheaper to market with fixed gear. I think the same thing will happen here. Fixed gear will end up being good enough and for a trainer, it is.

[KSMooniac]

I'd bet a dollar an RG Corvalis would be less than 10 knots faster... you have to add more weight too, and that takes away from the top speed.  Going FG was faster and cheaper, certainly, but we had provisioned for RG from day one.  If the GA market were better (like in the 70's) I think there would be a 200 hp version and an RG version by now.

 

Racing at Reno is an apples to elephants comparison where speed is prized above cost, durability, efficiency, etc.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

A structural composite fuselage opens a big can of worms, certification-wise. Hence my thought about just bolting one to the existing cage to keep it simple. Still a big task, though.

I'm with you on this one. They might even be able to get a door to fit right.

[bonal]

I think the M20 will continue to be produced they are ready out of the box aircraft that oh bye the way out perform any single certfied airplane I dont care when it was made Mooney's are fast and efficient. And I will approach the loading a diferent way (last time I was called a racist) Americans are fat and heavy. if you look back in time the average weight was around 165lbs if we were as trim as the asian men we could put 4 adults and full fuel no problem. you guys suprise me Mooneys are the best I see no reason to stop making them, the price point is high but no higher than a cirrus or Cessna 400

[yvesg]

Looking at the picture I can predict that they will have to increase the tail and rudder surface. Our M20s are not approved for spins (required for trainers) and such a small tail will not allow fast enough spin recovery.

Yves

[TabulaRasa]

Just outta curiosity... how many of you did your initial private pilot training on a Mooney M20?  I'm guessing none of you.  I did it in a Cessna 152 and the first retract I flew was a Piper Arrow that did a stately 135kt.  

 

If the M10T/J can be a stepping stone or alternative destination to the M20, I think that is a great thing.  Cirrus has done well marketing to non-pilots.  

[dfgreene61]

Here's the brochure for the new M10 models.

 

[Cabanaboy]

This will be a great airplane to have when you become a member of the Mooney Billionaire Resort.

http://www.mooneyworldwide.com/mooney-regional-air-park/

[aviatoreb]

What is v_H?  v_H = 180 ktas but v_75%=160tas?

[KSMooniac]

I was wondering that too.  I noticed it is different than the 170 KTAS cruise & 1000 NM range that was released earlier.  You would think a turbo diesel could run 100% in cruise but without a prop control who knows what is scheduled in the FADEC.  Perhaps it is coded to run the power plant at 100% and RPM at something less than 100%?  

[wishboneash]

There are far better airfoils available today than the 64-212, so I would be disappointed if that was still used.  A modern composite wing will be a LOT more efficient than the Mooney wing... the bigger question is will they make it as strong and as well-behaved at low speed.  

 

 

 

 

The Diamond DA40 is probably a testament to that. Composite wing with high strength, benign stall and low speed characteristics. Does 135-140 knots with a 180hp IO-360 at 8gph if I am not mistaken.

[aviatoreb]

The Diamond DA40 is probably a testament to that. Composite wing with high strength, benign stall and low speed characteristics. Does 135-140 knots with a 180hp IO-360 at 8gph if I am not mistaken.

 

That's right - I had a DA40 before I had this Mooney.  135-140 on 8gph was about right - but it also ran nicely at ~150 on 10.5gph.

[sreid]

What is v_H?  v_H = 180 ktas but v_75%=160tas?

Vh is the maximum level flight speed with maximum continuous thrust.

[aviatoreb]

Vh is the maximum level flight speed with maximum continuous thrust.

 

Is that maximum continuos thrust max attainable thrust - so 100% take off thrust if it is a turbo below critical altitude, or is that max allowed continuous thrust?

[Hank]

I can probably get used to the funny fuselage shape, as all newer planes are going that way. But that wing! Longish, narrow and straight, like a stretched Hershey bar.

[carusoam]

Yves,

Is Canada still requiring spin training?

We are still doing stalls, I think, with a focus on stall awareness being better...?

Best regards,

-a-

[M20JFlyer]

Did anyone visit the Bin Ao Aircraft- (Diamond quality ) exabition at EAA Airventure.

I have not followed the progress of that mission but it appeared to be a marriage of Diamond as we know it and of Binao Diamond Aircraft ... being built in Shandong, China

If they are still in progress they will be Shandong Bin Ao Aircraft Industries Co. Ltd

If you drill down on the Chinese Diamond airplane marriage ... IMO their are similar things HAPPENING at MI.

Plyons820@yahoo.com

[Jeff_S]

I'm thinking that if these M10J's do come to fruition, it could be the ultimate "step-down" plane!  I mean, who wouldn't want to get the same speed as an Ovation on 1/3 the fuel burn?  I never carry more than one extra person anyway.  But the proof is in the pudding, so it will be interesting to see how these move through the certification process.

[aviatoreb]

I'm thinking that if these M10J's do come to fruition, it could be the ultimate "step-down" plane!  I mean, who wouldn't want to get the same speed as an Ovation on 1/3 the fuel burn?  I never carry more than one extra person anyway.  But the proof is in the pudding, so it will be interesting to see how these move through the certification process.

 

By its own description, on page 4 of this thread - it is a 160TAS at 75% cruise power plane.  So it is slower than an ovation.  Still it is a superb concept if it prices out well.  This is more like a competitor to the M20J.  3 seats is brilliant since that is all most people use anyway in their Mooneys most of the time - I can count on my left hand the number of times I have used my 4 seats for humans rather than just gear.  1 seat - often, 2 seats - sometimes, 3 seats now and then.  4 seat - 4 or 5 times.

 

Love the promised fuel burn.

 

What this offering also does for me is make me wonder out loud again when will someone produce a diesel engine retrofit STC to the M20?

[shorrick mk2]

It can well be that the Chinese decide they do not want to support two products that cannibalize each other and focus on the one with the better growth prospects - i.e. diesel, and put out a swap offer to current avgas engine operators...

[John Pleisse]

It can well be that the Chinese decide they do not want to support two products that cannibalize each other and focus on the one with the better growth prospects - i.e. diesel, and put out a swap offer to current avgas engine operators...

 

If this becomes a reality, I will be the first at the auction in Kerrville to acquire the jigs.

[yvesg]

Yves,

Is Canada still requiring spin training?

We are still doing stalls, I think, with a focus on stall awareness being better...?

Best regards,

-a-

It was still required when I did my private 17 years ago but not for the recreational permit. I don't know if it has changed since then. Have no clue if China has spin requirement or not.

When I did my training, I remember having done a power on stall solo which took me into a spin. Without having received ground coaching on spin recovery before that flight I would be dead by now...so I am a firm believer that this should be part of the training.

Yves

[Steve Dawson]

It's not required anymore in Canada for the PPL but it is for the commercial. I think it's to bad too that they stopped doing spin training. You learnt so much and it was fun.

[NotarPilot]

I love this new design and concept. And if they can get the performance numbers close to the advertised numbers I think they have a real winner. I hope they follow through with the M10J with the RG. I think this would fill a niche market appealing to the Cirrus type owner who wants the style and (dare I say it?) "class" that an RG plane brings to the table. I can't think of any newer designs in the 4 place piston market that have RG. Not the Diamond, Cirrus, Liberty, Cessna (Columbia) no one. The newest RG 4 place piston design I can think of is the Aerospatiale Trinidad and that's not exactly revolutionary anymore. I really think this is a break through concept for the current market.