Any Mooney versus a plastic airplane

[flyboy0681]

For those that have flow the Cirrus, is the left handed sidestick easy to get used to? It seems to me that the pilot is limited in what sh/e can do with just a left handed control. When I'm flying I find myself with my right hand on the yoke when I need to do something like get an item out of the side pocket, set the clock or what have you.

[Marauder]

For those that have flow the Cirrus, is the left handed sidestick easy to get used to? It seems to me that the pilot is limited in what sh/e can do with just a left handed control. When I'm flying I find myself with my right hand on the yoke when I need to do something like get an item out of the side pocket, set the clock or what have you.

The motion is very similar to what you would do with a yoke - just looks like it should be different. I thought it felt more like a video game. For me the stranger part was not having anything directly in front of me.

[carusoam]

After the side stick was announced...

I realized how much my flying was done with my left hand, with support from my right.

Right when two hands seems most appropriate for precision, my right hand is busy monitoring the throttle...!

It really points out how different it is flying from the right seat.

My thoughts,

-a-

[fantom]

When I'm flying I find myself with my right hand on the yoke.....

 

I would have figured you for a 'left' handed kinda guy...all the way, Mike

[aviatoreb]

The motion is very similar to what you would do with a yoke - just looks like it should be different. I thought it felt more like a video game. For me the stranger part was not having anything directly in front of me.

 

I always fly final through flare with just my left hand.  Left hand holding my (mooney) yoke and right hand on the throttle quadrant.  So that part of the Cirrus thing is not as strange as it seems.  For me it is the spring-loading that reduces control feel that makes Cirrus not so much fun and maybe even a safety issue.

[aviatoreb]

Our club just had a 100 hour brain surgen get in one of our Piper archers fly 400 miles to Tulsa and crash on the runway with winds blowing straight down the runway at 18g 25. This person never helped with club activities or attended the meetings. The arrogance is unbelievable! Then this guy, until I got involved checked another plane out 4 days later without getting any additional instruction. I bring this up because this guy wants in on our cirrus club.....can you imagine what he would have done in a cirrus! ImageUploadedByTapatalk1413894339.937132.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1413894357.270904.jpgImageUploadedByTapatalk1413894370.822281.jpg

This happened last week.

 

Oooh - a brain surgeon.  Flying: It's not exactly brain surgery.  

 

So reposting from another thread:

 

[adrian]

For some reason they seem to burst into flames unduly, and I have seen video of this. .

 

"Unduly" implies that there is a safety failing in the Cirrus that doesn't exist in other aircraft.  Yes, in some circumstances if the fuel tanks are ruptured there can be a fire.  But there were post-impact fires in 45 out of the last 100 fatal Mooney accidents, and in 35 out of the last 100 fatal Bonanza accidents.  If we are going to criticize the post-accident safety of a Cirrus, it should be done with the understanding that old aluminium aircraft with a single door are generally worse.

[Ftlausa]

I did not find the Cirrus side yoke difficult at all to get accustomed to.  I do see, however, how someone could over control the Cirrus due to the lake of control input feel.

[aviatoreb]

"Unduly" implies that there is a safety failing in the Cirrus that doesn't exist in other aircraft.  Yes, in some circumstances if the fuel tanks are ruptured there can be a fire.  But there were post-impact fires in 45 out of the last 100 fatal Mooney accidents, and in 35 out of the last 100 fatal Bonanza accidents.  If we are going to criticize the post-accident safety of a Cirrus, it should be done with the understanding that old aluminium aircraft with a single door are generally worse.

 

I am quite aware.  Those fuel cells - and the safety record generally were a major selling point of the DA40 when I purchased it.  My flying needs eventually outgrew that airplane and I sucked it up and bought a wet wing plane.  I wish fuel cell technology could be in all of our airplanes.  Fuel cells by the way - as I understand the history, so don't hold me to it - were developed during the Vietnam war in the setting of helicopters that had many fires due to crashes as well as enemy gun fire when low to the ground.  I also understand that they have revolutionized cars - and you don't see those fireball crashes in nascar so often like you did in the 1960s.

 

So I wish I had fuel cells in my Mooney wing.

 

I dont have stats to back it up, but the rap - the word on the street - is that Cirrus crashes result in more and frequent fires than you would expect for the nature of the crash.  There is a difference vs a Mooney in that they are carbon skins instead of metal skins, but I have no idea if that makes a difference.

 

Forget the BRS - I want an ejection seat if things go South.  Or a "do-over" reset game function.

[aviatoreb]

I did not find the Cirrus side yoke difficult at all to get accustomed to.  I do see, however, how someone could over control the Cirrus due to the lake of control input feel.

 

I was not refer to the over controlling due to lack of feel - I was referring to undercontrol.  Meaning I could see where you might get close to a stall in the pattern and not even notice, more so in other airplanes.

[philiplane]

I have experience in more than 100 different airplanes, and the Cirrus control feel is very good, and it had great handling qualities. Well harmonized controls, similar to a Bonanza.  The side yoke only takes a few flights to become second nature. The airframe does not suffer from corrosion issues like our legacy airplanes do, since only the flight control surfaces are aluminum. The parachute sells an otherwise reluctant spouse on the idea of owning a plane, since she can pull the handle if hubby collapses. Those are some of the reasons it has surpassed all other single engine airplanes and has become the best seller. 

 

If Mooney is to ever really recover, it needs innovation that will only come from a new airframe. The current airframe has no evolution prospects, mainly because it was designed when pilots were, well, smaller. Ease of access and cabin volume, along with fixed gear, are key Cirrus sales points. What does Mooney have to offer in comparison? Honest answers are needed if the brand is to survive. And it is important that the factory sells new planes, so support will continue for the old ones. 

[carusoam]

Expect the financial advisers will have more pull as time goes on.

They are more educated than the ones that came before them.

They still aren't interested in learning to fly.

Or am I alone with that?

Fortunately, our IO550 is more bullet proof than their IO550.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

is there a difference in the two IO550. Just curious

[carusoam]

Not enough to make the statement in my post above....

I am interested in what would have caused the power failure in this case.

In the early 90's, oil cooling systems caused engine failures for the IO550. FAA reports for incidents and service difficulties are listed for both Mooney and Cirrus aircraft.

The IO550 has a TCM oil radiator mounted to the engine. Nice technology, unless it leaks....

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

..Cirrus...The airframe does not suffer from corrosion issues like our legacy airplanes do, since only the flight control surfaces are aluminum. ...

 

I believe that is in correct.  At least I KNOW it is incorrect for the Diamond DA40 I owned and I believe it is the same issue for a Cirrus.  My Diamond DA40 suffered a VERY expensive bout of corrosion of the wings, I already mentioned above. The carbon wings have a metal sheet embedded inside the wing, through the whole wing, and metal hardware and fittings as well.  These dissimilar metals allow electrochemical action that eventually leads to corrosion, underneath the carbon.  This is seen as bubbling up of the carbon in certain places on the wings.  My corrosion damage was relatively isolated and "only" cost about $5k to "scarf" (remove layers of carbon), remove offending corroded hardware, treat with anti-corrosives, replace hardware, and then apply repair carbon materials.  This is $5k to address corrosion in two small locations on the wings due to hardware that if it were a metal plane, the "scarf" process would not be necessary and then replacing parts would be $0.5K.  I have seen some DA40s with much much more extensive bubbling than the early damage mine had.  The fact that it happens underneath and embedded in the carbon makes corrosion a much more expensive scenario than a metal plane where you just access and remove replace corroded parts.  BTW the metal is put inside these carbon wings to allow them to be IFR cert so that they wick electricity in the clouds.

[carusoam]

Interesting challenge...

Embedding a wire mesh that is susceptible to oxidation is a fundamental problem.

Composites are not great barriers to oxygen transport at the molecular level.

Over time, a few oxygen molecules pass through the skin and attack the sensitive metal.

The metal oxidizes and the resulting oxide increases in volume at the molecular level.

This process continues until bubbles and separation of the structure occur.

Once bubbles or cracks appear, the oxygen can really penetrate the system and the rate of oxidation can increases proportionally and the problem spreads like a cancer.

In the future, could they choose...

A light weight metal mesh that doesn't corrode but retains the low electrical resistance properties?

- SS may not have the required low resistivity.

A metal mesh that doesn't change volume if it were to oxidize. Anodized aluminum?

Add a polymer layer or coating that inhibits oxygen transport?

Thoughts off the top of my head,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Interesting challenge...

Embedding a wire mesh that is susceptible to oxidation is a fundamental problem.

Composites are not great barriers to oxygen transport at the molecular level.

Over time, a few oxygen molecules pass through the skin and attack the sensitive metal.

The metal oxidizes and the resulting oxide increases in volume at the molecular level.

This process continues until bubbles and separation of the structure occur.

Once bubbles or cracks appear, the oxygen can really penetrate the system and the rate of oxidation can increases proportionally and the problem spreads like a cancer.

In the future, could they choose...

A light weight metal mesh that doesn't corrode but retains the low electrical resistance properties?

- SS may not have the required low resistivity.

A metal mesh that doesn't change volume if it were to oxidize. Anodized aluminum?

Add a polymer layer or coating that inhibits oxygen transport?

Thoughts off the top of my head,

-a-

 

Exactly - I was horrified when I realized how expensive and obnoxious a corroding carbon wing could be - I spoke up her to try and dispel the myth that carbon airplanes do not corrode.  Quite the contrary, they do corrode and it is much much more expensive to address.

 

Would a titanium mesh do the trick?  It is highly noncorrosive.  Would it be electrically conductive enough?

 

Part of the design problem was that the metal fittings were different metals than the embedded mesh - and we know the conductance implications of that - so at least the same material of metal should be used.

 

I presume Cirrus also has an embedded metal mesh - but I do not know. (Anyone?)  Anyone ever heard of this sort of corrosion in a Cirrus?

[carusoam]

Couldn't find anything like lightning protection from their website...

http://whycirrus.com/engineering/cirrus-engineering-approach.aspx

http://cirrusaircraft.com/sr22/

Note: they have an additional 5 years of recent development history. Airbag seat belts and strong chairs are pluses...

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

Maybe Mooney needs to be the first Hybrid airframe aircraft! Keep the metal wing and tail, add a titanium cage and carbon fiber fuselage with the chute. This would cut down the weight and further clean up the aerodynamics.

[Tom]

If Mooney is to ever really recover, it needs innovation that will only come from a new airframe. The current airframe has no evolution prospects, mainly because it was designed when pilots were, well, smaller. Ease of access and cabin volume, along with fixed gear, are key Cirrus sales points. What does Mooney have to offer in comparison? Honest answers are needed if the brand is to survive. And it is important that the factory sells new planes, so support will continue for the old ones. 

 

 

Two Part 23 change prospects:

1)  Appropriate changes in certification rules could/should dinosaur the current offerings of both Mooney and Cirrus.

2)  Changes in registration rules will allow most current Mooney owners to add a chute (if BRS will sell to vintage Mooney owners).

 

It's heretical to say this but current MAC operations are little more than a non-sustainable adventure project for surplus Chinese capital. Mooney will otherwise forever shine in its superiority of what it can do with a 200hp 4-banger and for this a new airframe is not needed.

[Ftlausa]

Erik, I don't disagree, and I think we are basically saying the same thing. 

[flyboy0681]

Another one today. There appears to be survivors due to the parachute.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/police-plane-helicopter-collide-maryland-203423275.html

[Piloto]

I believe that is in correct.  At least I KNOW it is incorrect for the Diamond DA40 I owned and I believe it is the same issue for a Cirrus.  My Diamond DA40 suffered a VERY expensive bout of corrosion of the wings, I already mentioned above. The carbon wings have a metal sheet embedded inside the wing, through the whole wing, and metal hardware and fittings as well.  These dissimilar metals allow electrochemical action that eventually leads to corrosion, underneath the carbon.  This is seen as bubbling up of the carbon in certain places on the wings.  My corrosion damage was relatively isolated and "only" cost about $5k to "scarf" (remove layers of carbon), remove offending corroded hardware, treat with anti-corrosives, replace hardware, and then apply repair carbon materials.  This is $5k to address corrosion in two small locations on the wings due to hardware that if it were a metal plane, the "scarf" process would not be necessary and then replacing parts would be $0.5K.  I have seen some DA40s with much much more extensive bubbling than the early damage mine had.  The fact that it happens underneath and embedded in the carbon makes corrosion a much more expensive scenario than a metal plane where you just access and remove replace corroded parts.  BTW the metal is put inside these carbon wings to allow them to be IFR cert so that they wick electricity in the clouds.

 

Woow!!! I guess the corrosion couldn't be sanded off. It cost me no more than $1.00 to sand off and repaint corrosion in my M20J. I have seen lightning hits on composites with embedded carbon and is not pretty. It can spread along the structure that requires replacing/repairing a whole section of the plane. While in a Mooney is just a pinhole on the skin

 

José 

[Piloto]

Another one today. There appears to be survivors due to the parachute.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/police-plane-helicopter-collide-maryland-203423275.html

 

They are going to add now parachutes in all Robinson helicopters?. And you thought floats were enough. Mooney needs to add parachutes and floats. The quick solution for Mooney is to provide free passenger parachutes and life jackets on the new Acclaims. And for the Top Gun looks helmets with the Mooney logo in front. That will beat Cirrus.

 

José

[Andy95W]

It's heretical to say this but current MAC operations are little more than a non-sustainable adventure project for surplus Chinese capital. Mooney will otherwise forever shine in its superiority of what it can do with a 200hp 4-banger and for this a new airframe is not needed.

Boy, I hate to admit this, but I think this is dead on.