rear spar repair

[Spanky]

looking at another plane.  of concern, rear spar was repaired back in '86 and documented by reputable shop from gear collapse.  i'm on the fence whether this poses a "no-go" or press w/ pre-buy.  This is biggest concern, that i've found thus far.  couple top-wing fuel leaks too that I need to get more info on as well would be next priority.  other than that, solid airplane, good paint, nice interior, fresh overhaul, & weak avionics///// thoughts?  if i can get the price right, might be a winner. 

 thanks in advance

Spanky

[DaV8or]

Damage history = lower resale in the future. However, the longer from the time of damage the less it matters. If you and your pre buy mechanic are satisfied with the repairs, then that's all that really matters. Leaky tanks = about $7-8,000 for reseal or bladders. Factor that in the sale price. Since they are already leaking, you know you need to do it soon. If you're happy with the rest of the plane and it checks out in pre buy, then go for it. Me personally would be; damage + leaky tanks + weak avionics = pass on it. On the other hand, if the price is cheap enough that you can fix the tanks and get new avionics, then maybe.

[KSMooniac]

I'd want to see the details of the damage and the repairs, as well as a Mooney-savvy pre-buy.  Typically the spar doesn't get damaged in a gear-up/gear-collapse to my knowledge, so there may be more to the story.  I'd be more concerned about the weak avionics, though.  You'd have to get it really cheap to have some good headroom left to modernize the panel.

Is this a K from AR by chance?

[Ned Gravel]

Do you know if the rear spar repair was the result of damage, or of the SB to put in the doubler to repair cracks caused by flap use above the white arc?

[Sabremech]

I want to put my .02 out here about damage history. If the repair was done correctly per manufacturers instructions and AC 43-13, it's a mute point. In my opinion, it has no bearing on the price of the airplane. My recently purchased Mooney had a gear up in 2005. End result was a new prop, overhaul on the engine, one piece belly panel and is a really nice airplane. Does that make it worth less? Far to many people put a false assumption that because there is damage history that it is worth less, FALSE.

A properly repaired airplane is not worth less than one that hasn't had any repairs. An airplane that hasn't had proper maintenance is worth less than one with proper repairs.

 

[PTK]

Any spar damage renders the airplane useless.  Especially if you are unsure what the original damage was to necessitate spar repair.  Simply drilling on the spar trashes the airplane.  This is why, if you've noticed, Mooney welded little attachments to secure the vertical carpet piece in front of the spar under the rear passengers' legs.  They did not just drill on the spar to secure the carpet.  In my opinion ANY spar damage trashes the airplane.  There are plenty of REAL NDH airplanes out there!

[Comatose]

Don't be silly... There are plenty of planes with fabricated spars, riveted spars, welded spars, bolted spars, glue laminated wooden spars... There's nothing magical about a "spar" that precludes drilling, assuming that drilling was done based on proper engineering calculations and to spec. 

 

 

 

[Sabremech]

Here's where I think some education is warranted. Spars can be repaired properly. If you haven't read or have a copy of AC 43.13, I suggest you get one and take a look at it, even if you aren't a mechanic. It will open your eyes as to what some proper repair procedures are. Mooney will have their own procedures or repairs in their structural repair manuals, but if they don't have it, that doesn't mean it can't be repaired properly.

 I don't want to make this a long winded post, but as Comatose said, "Don't be silly" spars can be repaired.

[PTK]

It's a matter of opinion.  My opinion is that spar damage/repair equates to a trashed airplane.   I would never consider a spar damaged airplane.  Although I agree there is nothing magical about the spar I am not an expert on spars.  For this reason I rely on the opinion of experts such as the factory, Bill Wheat, Don Maxwell, Dugosh and the like.  Having said that a large part of the enjoyment I derive from flying my Mooney comes from my trust I have in the predictable performance of the machine.  I feel like I know my airplane so well that I can place my confidence in it.  The Mooney is such a greatly engineered airplane that if you give it half a chance it will astound.  It astounds me on every flight.  I'd take a gear up airplane before a damaged spar.  Of course with no wing strike.   In most cases a properly repaired gearup landing with no wing strike comes out better than before.  You get a fresh overhaul, new prop and hub a new one piece belly to name just a few items.  

[FlyingAggie]

This plane sounds awhole lot like a one I was interested in last year.  N231EH was for sale by Barron Thomas.  It had a damage history in which the the rear spar had been damage and repaired by a unrecognizable A&P.  The the repair was poorly documented.  BT assured me it was a first class repair.   The a/c had been moved to Chandler Aviation for a pre-buy that fell through due to the buyer not qualifying for a loan.  The prebuy hadn't turned up anything major, but they hadn't pulled the wing skins off either.

BT originally listed for $79K, then reduced to $59K and I think finally sold "here is as is" for $28K.  Months later I was speaking to Chandler about another 231 and I asked him about EH.  Turned out, the next buyer had'em dig deep and the repairs were improperly made. I was going to cost a ton to make it airworthy.

Proceed with caution.....

[N9937c]

Quote: allsmiles

Any spar damage renders the airplane useless.  Especially if you are unsure what the original damage was to necessitate spar repair.  Simply drilling on the spar trashes the airplane.  This is why, if you've noticed, Mooney welded little attachments to secure the vertical carpet piece in front of the spar under the rear passengers' legs.  They did not just drill on the spar to secure the carpet.  In my opinion ANY spar damage trashes the airplane.  There are plenty of REAL NDH airplanes out there!

[KLRDMD]

Quote: FlyingAggie

. . . for sale by Barron Thomas.  Chandler Aviation for a pre-buy . . .

[Sabremech]

Allsmiles, If you ask the Mooney experts, I'm sure you'll find they can enlighten you as to what a good repair is versus a bad one. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but in the context of this post for the benefit of Spanky, a proper repair whether it be on a flight control or a spar isn't automatically a deal breaker.

I'm an AP/IA but in no way an expert. It's my opinion that as an A&P, I share as much information as possible to help someone make an educated versus opinionated decision.

[Spanky]

seller said there is a disertation about the repair that was accomplished in '04 by Associated Aero Service, Inc. in OK.  he is sending me the report via pdf, so will look over it tonight.  other news i found out was the owner before him didnt fly the plane much at all.  the OH motor was accomplished in '01 and currently has 130 hrs to date.  there was 40 hours logged since the spar repair.  he did stress the plane has been hangered in the west since the OH. 

and thanks again for all the responses. 

Spanky

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Spanky

 the OH motor was accomplished in '01 and currently has 130 hrs to date. 

[m20exec]

Quote: FlyingAggie

This plane sounds awhole lot like a one I was interested in last year.  N231EH was for sale by Barron Thomas.  It had a damage history in which the the rear spar had been damage and repaired by a unrecognizable A&P.  The the repair was poorly documented.  BT assured me it was a first class repair.   The a/c had been moved to Chandler Aviation for a pre-buy that fell through due to the buyer not qualifying for a loan.  The prebuy hadn't turned up anything major, but they hadn't pulled the wing skins off either.

BT originally listed for $79K, then reduced to $59K and I think finally sold "here is as is" for $28K.  Months later I was speaking to Chandler about another 231 and I asked him about EH.  Turned out, the next buyer had'em dig deep and the repairs were improperly made. I was going to cost a ton to make it airworthy.

Proceed with caution.....

[DaV8or]

Quote: Sabremech

A properly repaired airplane is not worth less than one that hasn't had any repairs.

[Spanky]

should have done this earlier.  here's the plane i'm looking at

http://www.aest-sales.com/N9591M-Logs.html

[PTK]

Quote: Sabremech

Allsmiles, If you ask the Mooney experts, I'm sure you'll find they can enlighten you as to what a good repair is versus a bad one. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but in the context of this post for the benefit of Spanky, a proper repair whether it be on a flight control or a spar isn't automatically a deal breaker.

I'm an AP/IA but in no way an expert. It's my opinion that as an A&P, I share as much information as possible to help someone make an educated versus opinionated decision.

[PTK]

Quote: Sabremech

Allsmiles, If you ask the Mooney experts, I'm sure you'll find they can enlighten you as to what a good repair is versus a bad one. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but in the context of this post for the benefit of Spanky, a proper repair whether it be on a flight control or a spar isn't automatically a deal breaker.

I'm an AP/IA but in no way an expert. It's my opinion that as an A&P, I share as much information as possible to help someone make an educated versus opinionated decision.

[Hank]

Calm down! This is a repair to the REAR SPAR!! The REAR SPAR is where the flaps attach. It is NOT the main wing spar, and is NOT the "heart of the plane."

Like a properly repaired gear up, this would not disqualify the plane in my opinion. The logs should have enough history and detail to determine if the repair was properly done, at least when reviewed by a knowledgable mechanic. If he can't tell, then he surely will on the pre-buy.

A greater concern to my mind is 130 hours in nine years . . . she spent a LOT of time sitting, which can lead to lots of engine trouble. Rust, corrosion, dry-rot in hoses--be sure to get a borescope inspection. That's a waving red flag saying "check me out." I do not see any "STAY AWAY" flags on this plane. All the more reason to get a thorough pre-buy inspection. Then you will know what shape the plane is in, what needs to be done, and you can agree on an accurate price.

[Sabremech]

Spanky,

 Look over the documentation for the repair and it should be quite detailed. If you have questions, ask the folks who are doing the pre-buy and they can most likely answer or address any concerns you may have. They should also be able to give you a good idea of engine health, considering the low hours of engine activity. I agree with Hank about the rear spar and that was what I was trying to inform you about.

 I hope we've given you some good information to assist you in your search and possible purchase.

[DaV8or]

Quote: allsmiles

And are you serious about comparing a repair to an aileron or flap in the same category as the SPAR?  Are you serious??

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Spanky

should have done this earlier.  here's the plane i'm looking at

http://www.aest-sales.com/N9591M-Logs.html

[KSMooniac]

If anyone thinks that any airplane makes it through the production line without an off-spec or damaged part, you're kidding yourself.  Parts get damaged all the time in normal production, and go through a process with engineering review to repair, replace, or use as-is before they ever get a chance to accumulate real "damage history" in the field.

Any prospective plane with damage history needs to be checked out by an expert and see if the paperwork matches the repair work.  D.H. does have the potential to lower the value, but it is not an absolute.  Nor does it make any airplane "trash" automatically.