Contemplating Mooney Ownership

[Sector95]

Hi Mooniacs, long time lurker here...  Doing some research.

 

I'm sure you are all very sick of these kinds of questions, but I'm a low-time pilot with a soft spot for Mooneys.  I earned my pilot's license just under two years ago, but didn't get to fly much last year due to school (just 10 hours ).  Most of my experience is in 172's, with a few hours in a Sport Cub.

 

I'm at a point where I've decided I'd like to spend my hard earned money on an airplane of my own.  It's not cheaper than renting for me, but there is something about being able to get up and go to the airport on a whim, fly anywhere I want, and stay as long as I want that is unbelievably attractive to me.  Plus, now that I've graduated I will finally have the time to fly again.

 

Right now I've done some math on a mid-60's 172/PA-28, and it came down to roughly $12,000/year for ownership of one of those aircraft, which I can afford (that includes hangar, loan, annual, TBO, insurance, and 50 hours of flight time).  I'm curious if anyone has any insight into maintenance cost comparisons between a 172 and something like a M20C.

 

A little bit of a non-sequitor, but believe it or not, in spite of my interest in them, I've never actually had the opportunity to ride in a Mooney, except for cockpit cameras on YouTube.   I know that the cabins are a bit smaller on Mooneys than 172's, do you think a broad-shouldered 6'2" oaf like me would be able to fly comfortably with someone in the right seat with me?

 

Thanks in advance for your insight, and for helping a poor aviation nut actualize his dream of aircraft ownership and self-inflicted poverty.

[jetdriven]

If you buy one in poor shape, you can spend 50K the first year on maintenance.  But I'd guess that at 50 hours, I wouldnt consider buying. Its 200$ an hour if nothing breaks, and stuff breaks, for sure. Above 100hr/yr it becomes viable, more expensive but more useful. If you split that 100hr (better yet, 150-200) a year with a partner you can really make it look attractive.

 

if you post your city I bet some Mooney owner will offer you a ride. Its what we do.

[Z W]

Welcome.  The Mooney cabin is actually fairly wide.  It is shorter (less headroom) than most GA planes.  Only way to tell if you'll like it is to sit in one and see.  It fits tall pilots pretty well actually.  You sit low like in a sports car.

 

Your budget may be a little optimistic, but you're probably in the ball park.  As best I can tell, any piston single in good condition is going to cost you $10,000.00 per year in fixed costs on average.  That covers hangar, insurance, annual inspection, and average routine maintenance costs. Gas and oil changes are extra.  So are loan payments, and so is an engine reserve, if you plan to do one.  That's my experience through two Mooneys, a 1968 and a 1983, in an area where hangars are $250/month.  

 

That's an average.  Repairs are the biggest unknown.  You'll have years where you have to replace mags, gear motors, starters, etc, and you'll spend $5k on maintenance alone.  Other years, none (or probably less) of those types of items will break, and you won't spend much.  Try to buy a regularly flying plane with a good maintenance record to minimize those unknowns.  But they will happen anyways.  Some years may be $7k, some will be $15k.  If you have to replace the engine, it will be a lot more.

 

Owning your own plane is great, and so are Mooneys.  Happy shopping.  If you post your location, a member near you will usually offer to let you sit in the cockpit, if not take you up for a flight.

[John Pleisse]

An M20C is a great transition a/c. While jetdriven's numbers are correct, they closely match a flight line 172SP rental. Getting a partner is great advice.

 

I would assert you need to look out for the big "gotcha's". Tanks-  $11,500 (after taxes and transport to an from). This is the single largest ticket squawk on vintage C models. I say dive in and plan on $18,000-$20,000 your first year (not including debt). If it comes out cheaper, good on ya. Welcome. I think you a making the right choice.

[Marauder]

Where are you located? Might be good to see if a local Mooney owner can get you inside of one.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[KSMooniac]

You'll fit fine...just know that the seating position is more like a Corvette or Porsche vs. the truck/SUV/Cessna seating position.  I'm 6'1" with moderately broad shoulders and long legs and it is perfect for me.  If you have another big person in the pax seat, a little offset in the seats will leave you plenty of room.

 

You're in the ballpark cost-wise, but the best advice is to buy the absolute best airframe you can and you'll fly more and repair less.  Search the numerous threads about buying and you'll learn a lot.  Consider taking a partner if you're worried about it...flying more hours per year reduces the hourly cost for both partners, and gives you an extra set of hands for washing, waxing, wrenching, etc.  Hangar costs vary widely, so it is hard to compare total operating costs with that rolled-in since some pay $100/mo and others $500/mo.  

[RobertE]

I'm going to give you the opinion of a old guy (62) who began flying late in life (50) and, so, is more conservative than most.  This may not ring true to you.  I don't know your age, but it wouldn't have made sense to me in my 20s or 30s when I felt more invincible.

 

I bought a Cherokee 180, despite coveting faster, sexier aircraft and was glad I did.  Would a bad thing have happened had I gone immediately to a retractable that was 20 knots faster and had limitations on landing gear extension/retraction and that, unlike a Cherokee, likes to float if approach speed is a bit too fast?  Probably not, but I know there were times I was glad I had that Cherokee rather than something with the characteristics of a Mooney.  I would also second many of the opinions concerning expense.  Cessna 172s and Cherokees are simple enough to not run the risk of the sorts of surprises that a steel tubed, aluminum skinned aircraft can pose.  I know that when I bought my Mooney from All American Aircraft they gave me a nice trade-in value for my Cherokee sight unseen.  I mention that only because they did it with the comment "hey, just send photos and the log books and we'll come up with a number becuase there isn't much that can go wrong with a Cherokee".  I know they don't buy Mooneys sight unseen.

 

So if you go the Cessna or Piper route it may cost you a little extra (two sets of transaction costs) but I bet not much. 

[Bob - S50]

Following on to what jetdriven said, we have 4 partners.  If I fly 50 hours/year I figure my costs (at an average of $6/gallon) are about $140/hour.  If there were only two of us it would be about $200/hour.  On my own... $320/hour.  Some of those are competitive with what's available to rent some aren't.

 

On the other hand it also depends on the type of flying you want to do.

 

I wanted a plane I could take from Washington to California, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado; and I wanted to get there in a reasonable amount of time.  That made me want a retractable. While I could find places that rent those planes, either the rates were high ($200/hour), they did not allow the plane to go beyond Oregon and Idaho, or they had a minimum of 3 hours/day if you left the local area.  If I flew 5 hours to California, stayed for a week and flew back, I'd be paying for 21 hours when I only used the plane 10 hours.

 

If you just want to fly in the local area to sightsee or go for $200 hamburgers (inflation)... I'd recommend you rent.

 

To me, owning with partners made the most sense.

 

Bob

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you plan to fly 50 hours per year I suggest you find a like-minded person and partner in a plane that you locate and purchase together.
You are unlikely to have many schedule conflicts and a good partner is a great asset in more than just shared expense relief.  That is especially true if you are buying your first plane.
I'm a partner in a plane; we each fly it 150 hours a year and schedule conflicts are rare.
I lay a lot of stress on finding a GOOD partner.,

[Sector95]

Thanks everyone for your input!  I really appreciate it!  I'm from the Portland, OR area, and usually rent from 7S3 out in Hillsboro.

 

The more math I do, the more I agree with you guys that a partner probably makes a lot of sense.  The point about the "unexpected stuff" is a good one: I can plan all I want, but I probably won't be able to plan for everything.  A partner would at least lessen the blow.

 

Any tips on finding a co-owner?  It seems to me that it is basically "luck of the draw" on finding a good partner...  Or finding a partner at all!  That seems particularly true for the Mooney scene; I don't feel like I see many of them around.

[BigTex]

I personally will never bring on a partner unless I can't afford it even if I only fly 25 hours per year. If you attempt to do a flying ROI find another hobby.

I almost enjoy my non-flying time with the plane more than flying time. There's nothing more enjoyable than hanging out in the hangar and tinkering with your plane.

[Sector95]

I personally will never bring on a partner unless I can't afford it even if I only fly 25 hours per year. If you attempt to do a flying ROI find another hobby.

I almost enjoy my non-flying time with the plane more than flying time. There's nothing more enjoyable than hanging out in the hangar and tinkering with your plane.

Oh great... Now I'm back in that mindset again!

 

I guess I have a lot of pondering to do...

[KSMooniac]

Most pilots quickly find out how impractical it is to try to rent a plane for use on a vacation, much less on a spur-of-the-moment weekend trip, but it becomes difficult to assign a monetary value to the ability to simply go to the airport anytime and get in your plane for a trip with no need to worry about getting it back for the next renter...  because of that you'll end up flying a LOT more than as a renter, which helps reduce the hourly cost if you worry about that.

 

I too enjoy tinkering/improving my plane and am in the middle of huge improvements...which means no flying, but it is still fun for me.  It has supplanted tinkering on cars and motorcycles, and in fact I just sold my motorcycle and am trying to sell my old/classic car.  I now hire-out a lot more car maintenance since I don't enjoy it.    So, for me, there is some "hobby" value to ownership in addition to the benefits of practical transportation.  

 

At the end of the day, I don't add up the costs.    So far, so good.

[AndyFromCB]

I'm going to give you the opinion of a old guy (62) who began flying late in life (50) and, so, is more conservative than most.  This may not ring true to you.  I don't know your age, but it wouldn't have made sense to me in my 20s or 30s when I felt more invincible.

 

I bought a Cherokee 180, despite coveting faster, sexier aircraft and was glad I did.  Would a bad thing have happened had I gone immediately to a retractable that was 20 knots faster and had limitations on landing gear extension/retraction and that, unlike a Cherokee, likes to float if approach speed is a bit too fast?  Probably not, but I know there were times I was glad I had that Cherokee rather than something with the characteristics of a Mooney.  I would also second many of the opinions concerning expense.  Cessna 172s and Cherokees are simple enough to not run the risk of the sorts of surprises that a steel tubed, aluminum skinned aircraft can pose.  I know that when I bought my Mooney from All American Aircraft they gave me a nice trade-in value for my Cherokee sight unseen.  I mention that only because they did it with the comment "hey, just send photos and the log books and we'll come up with a number becuase there isn't much that can go wrong with a Cherokee".  I know they don't buy Mooneys sight unseen.

 

So if you go the Cessna or Piper route it may cost you a little extra (two sets of transaction costs) but I bet not much. 

 

I think you're are truly underestimating the "little extra cost" of two transactions. They are not little. Sales tax, registration and not to mention working out kinks out two aircraft. There is a lot of things that can go wrong with a Cherokee. Mostly little things, but it being aviation, little things start at a grand and go up from there.

 

As to gear speed and floating, well, at least nobody ever landed a Mooney short of a runway ;-) 

[mooneygirl]

I had about 100 hours or so when I purchased my 65 E model. In Oregon there is no sales tax, so that is a happy thing.  Prior to the Mooney I was a 1/10 owner of a Warrior.  I didn't experience any real training issues. I did get Mooney-specific training and would recommend that highly.

I have over 1000 hours now and love the Mooney.  If you are able to do some [legal] maintenance yourself and perhaps an owner-assisted annual, there are $$ to be saved.  If I had to take my plane somewhere every time I needed the oil changed, I couldn't afford it.

I had my pre-buy done at the Mooney Service Center in Albany, OR.  I do know that the shop in Troutdale is doing a lot of Mooney work as well. They sealed my tanks. I flew from California to have the work done there.

Aircraft ownership is about choices.  I drive a modest car, and live in a modest home. I bought my airplane in 2003 for $42000. If you decide to go with a Mooney I think you will be very pleased with the craftsmanship, speed and efficiency.  Mooney also has a stellar safety record. As well, we are a tight knit Mooney family. There are lots of opportunities for social, educational and service events.

Welcome aboard.

[bnicolette]

Just do it.  (courtesy of Nike)  

[PTK]

Welcome Sector95.

My input to you would be to move forward and do it. The Mooney is a great airplane!

But be sure you research a sufficient number of airplanes to enable you to formulate a picture in your mind as to what you're looking for. Then narrow them down to the ones which may be worth looking further into and in person. Don't fall in love with the first one you see because love is blind! Go with the attitude looking to find reasons "not" to buy a particular airplane and be honest to yourself.

This is an important step and it takes time to complete. The right airplane will surface and will speak to you!

Also look at what you want in avionics and equipment and how the candidate airplanes are equipped. The rule is that it's cheaper for you as a buyer to buy a plane with most of the avionics and equipment you want already installed rather than having them installed yourself. Of course there has to be latitude and compromise with this as you may not find everything you want already in a given candidate.

Good luck with your search!

[Andy95W]

If you can afford to buy an airplane, then the M20C is a great alternative to either a 172 or PA-28. Similar acquisition cost, practically the same engine, and if it has manual gear and hydraulic flaps, nearly as easy to take care of as the Cessna or Piper.

Of course, this doesn't take into account any gotchas like corrosion or bad engine- but that could happen with the Piper or Cessna, too.

Maintenance will be 10-15% more in the M20C, In my experience, less if you can work with a knowledgable A&P and do a lot of work yourself.

Insurance will be significantly higher until you gain experience in the Mooney and get an instrument rating. Just a guess, but insurance for the 172 might run $1000/year, the M20C would be $3000+ for the first year, $2500 the second year, $2000 the third etc.

This may be a good question to ask the group here. If you can afford the insurance, get the Mooney.

One additional item to add to your budget- pay $75 for a small refrigerator so you can have cold beer for your hangar. Best way I know to make friends and get help with maintenance.

[AndyFromCB]

If you can afford to buy an airplane, then the M20C is a great alternative to either a 172 or PA-28. Similar acquisition cost, practically the same engine, and if it has manual gear and hydraulic flaps, nearly as easy to take care of as the Cessna or Piper.

Of course, this doesn't take into account any gotchas like corrosion or bad engine- but that could happen with the Piper or Cessna, too.

Maintenance will be 10-15% more in the M20C, In my experience, less if you can work with a knowledgable A&P and do a lot of work yourself.

Insurance will be significantly higher until you gain experience in the Mooney and get an instrument rating. Just a guess, but insurance for the 172 might run $1000/year, the M20C would be $3000+ for the first year, $2500 the second year, $2000 the third etc.

This may be a good question to ask the group here. If you can afford the insurance, get the Mooney.

One additional item to add to your budget- pay $75 for a small refrigerator so you can have cold beer for your hangar. Best way I know to make friends and get help with maintenance.

 

$3000+ for first year sounds excessive. I had my Arrow insured for $65K, 1 million smooth and the policy was $1600 or so from AIG.The liability will be the same and the hull value on a M20C will be next to nothing, 50K at most.

[Guitarmaster]

For what it worth, I have waited a LONG time to own my first airplane. This has been a lifelong dream come true!  I fly to work, where I fly some more, then I fly home.  

I am long past counting the costs of ownership and here's why...

 

You simply can't put a cost on the joy of knowing that airplane is YOURS.  NO ONE can tell you when, how far, what fields you can take it to.  I LOVE tinkering with my plane.  I call her my daughter, my wife calls her my mistress.  I have gone to the airport to do something to "Riley" and I just have to take her around the patch.  

 

Airplanes are expensive.  So is golf, racing, traveling, etc.  Any hobby worth-while will consume cash.  That being said, if you are mechanically inclined, theres a lot you can do yourself and save money.  You can do anything under the supervision of an A&P.  I work on mine and apply the hours toward my A&P.  Even if you can't fix the problem, you can sure diagnose it and save $$$$ at the shop.

Kids are expensive (much more so than an airplane), but the cost is insignificant to the joy.  Treat your new baby like a child.  Know that it will cost you money, but the ROI is HUGE!

Another thought… airplanes RARELY lose value.  The chances are really good you will be able to sell it, when you are ready, for what you bought it for or more.  The real cost of ownership is fuel, oil, maint and hanger.  

 

Go with your eyes open, but don't get paralyzed in the analysis.  Buy the best you can afford.  "Projects" rarely work out.  You're buying the engine and avionics, the airframe is just the container, hopefully a corrosion free container, but just a container.

 

 Airplanes can be financed out 15 years.  Keep that in mind when shopping.

All that being said, "Riley" is at the avionics shop today….  i feel my wallet getting lighter as we speak.    

 

Gear change… I am 6' and 220 LB.  I love my M20F.  She is an absolutely rock solid IFR platform.  She burns 9 GPH @ 140 KTAS (3500ft) and is a joy to fly.  As mentioned earlier, the seating is more along the lines of Porsche.  Cessna and Piper are more Chevy truck.

I was told this when I was looking so I will pass it on.  Be COMPLETELY honest with yourself about what you want the airplane to do.  When you figure this out, you might end up with a totally different airframe then you started looking at.  

Good luck!!

 

Matt

 

[dfgreene61]

I'm in the just do it camp! Best advise I can give is to have a very experienced Mooney expert do your pre-buy inspection. I didn't and wound up with a $12,500 first annual at Lasar.

[Sector95]

This is a pretty awesome crew, didn't think I'd get this many people telling me to go for it!

 

David, I think I'm going do just that!  It sounds like I should be fine, but obviously rather be safe than sorry.  I'm in the Portland, OR area.

[ryoder]

I bought one and to be honest the recurrent airworthiness directives are a it of a concern. I'll stick it out for a year and see how I like it. I only buy new cars with a warranty these days and expect a lot for my money so we will see if the Mooney is right for me.

[carusoam]

65C

Gear pump gears (aluminum and steal mixed)

Aileron control rods (added a gusset)

Prop ECI (same as today's)

The cost of these things were folded into the annual.

They were a couple hundred bucks each time arose. Nobody is happy with that.

But nobody looks forward to paying for day care either.

I voted yes on day care, college education and Mooney ownership!

Make it happen when you are ready...

Best regards,

-a-

[bdjohn4]

If I had to do it over again, after putting $$$ into refurbishing my 69E into better-than-new condition (tons of mods, IO-390, Scimitar Prop, paint, both LR tanks had to be stripped/resealed due to poor initial installation, Nose gear Bushing, Empennage bushing, engine mount, blah, blah, blah, etc), I would have done TWO or THREE different prebuy inspections on the ACFT I was really interested in. Tons of things were overlooked by the supposed "Former Mooney Service Center" pre-buy-inspection-guy. Tons of very expensive things. Remember the "Three Fs Rule". It rings truer with "Flying" than the other two.  You will lose money, big time, on any aircraft compared to renting. ACFT ownership is fun for the tinkerer, or someone like me who likes modding ACFT. Wait until you are out of school and doing well, and when you are to a point in your life where you can not sweat, $1000 here, $2500 there for this that and the other surprise. If you aren't able to comfortably handle DOUBLE what you budget, then perhaps that model ACFT will just become a headache and not fun.