In the market for a Mooney

[Bies7d2]

I have recently decided that I need to make the transition to aircraft owner. I have been looking very hard at Mooneys for the last year and I finally decided to ask for advice (outside of my collegues). I would really like a M20J but I think budget constraints will push me towards a E or F.  My standard mission will be weekend trips around the SE with 2-4 people and I need to be able to fly IFR. I would love to hear sugestions since I have found that advice from those with experince is the best way to learn. I am currently deployed so I wont be able to purchase anything until late this year early next year but it never hurts to start looking early.

 

-Phil

[ArtVandelay]

It's not the price of the plane that costs so much (that's a 1 time hit), it's the yearly expenses: fuel, hanger, maintenance, upgrades, insurance, etc, which over the many years of ownership will dwarf the cost of the plane. First ? to ask yourself, how much can I afford to spend on a yearly basis. this will dictate what airplane you should buy. IFR is more expensive to buy and maintain (subscriptions, avionics must be certified).  Hanger vs tiedown?  Figure your budget, then your requirements, from there deciding which plane becomes easy.

[Steve65E-NC]

Phil,

 

    What is your location in the SE.  I am in western NC, Hickory.  Respond with private message on this site if you would like to talk about Mooneys.

 

Steve 65E

Hickory, NC

 

 

[chrisk]

Most Mooneys have about 1000 pounds of useful load, from which you need to subtract fuel.  The distance of your trips and size of your passengers will certainly play into your decision. 

 

As for ownership costs, fixed costs will likely be slightly higher then a 172, with insurance and annuals being the difference.   I would guess the difference is about $1000 per year more for the Mooney.  Actual operating costs will be dominated by fuel, and the Mooney does well here when measured by the mile.

 

For IFR, the Mooney is a good platform.  Do a google search and look at accident rates.  You will see it has one of the lowest rates.  An auto pilot also helps quite a bit here.   But even with out an autopilot, the wing leveler on older Mooneys is valuable and low cost to fix.

 

As for down sides: 

• A Mooney is not the best for operating out of unimproved strips.  People do it, but if this is routinely on your mission, I would look at something else.
• You will need to find a Mooney savvy mechanic.   There is nothing hard about a Mooney and any mechanic can work on one.  But, you don't necessarily want to pay for some one to learn on your plane.  I'm talking about things like the stall warning horn and its location, gear setup, etc.  --The engines are very common and no competent mechanic should be learning on that.  --This can be mitigated somewhat by owner education.

 

Other things:

• Mooneys handle cross winds really well on landings.
• Mooneys handle gusty winds well on landings too.
• Mooney pilots need to pay attention to speed on landing.  At proper speeds, the plane is a joy to land, and takes very  little runway.   Come in hot, it it will float off the end of the runway. --And never force a Mooney to land.  Doing so can result in a prop strike. Hold off and land on the mains.
• Get some training with a Mooney specific  instructor.  You will get a lot out of it and learn how to fly the plane.  It doesn't take much time either.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Phil!

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

If you plan on having anyone older than 14 in the back seat I'd suggest an M20F.  That additional 6 inches of rear cabin room makes it a whole different category of airplane.

[Mooneymite]

I have recently decided that I need to make the transition to aircraft owner. I have been looking very hard at Mooneys for the last year and I finally decided to ask for advice (outside of my collegues). I would really like a M20J but I think budget constraints will push me towards a E or F.  My standard mission will be weekend trips around the SE with 2-4 people and I need to be able to fly IFR. I would love to hear sugestions since I have found that advice from those with experince is the best way to learn. I am currently deployed so I wont be able to purchase anything until late this year early next year but it never hurts to start looking early.

 

-Phil

 

Welcome, Phil!

 

Your decision to look at Mooneys tells us immediately that you are a discerning pilot of exceptional intelligence.  However, the curse of the Mooney crowd is you might be a penny pincher.  

 

Sounds like your mission profile is custom made for a Mooney, but as much as it pains me to say it, Mooneys aren't for everyone....just the exceptional, discerning, intelligent pilots!

 

Welcome to Mooneyspace where the incurable Mooniacs hang out.

[Bies7d2]

Thank you for the info. I had heard that the longer body aircraft are the way to go with 4 adults but I have not had a chance to actually verify it for myself. I definately like the overall performance numbers of the 200 Hp models. I keep looking at other "high performance " retractable gear aircraft and I keep coming back to the Mooney. I have done the budget numbers and really what I'm looking to find is an airplane that I can get into under 60k. Preferably I would like one that I didn't have to do a whole lot of work on initially but I'm not afraid to consider a planned expense like engine overhaul if I can keep my budget. Has anyone had a good experience with buying wantto aircraft with a high time component and outing it directly into maintenance?

[carusoam]

People with airplane ownership experience are more prepared to do such things...

It helps to have the house paid for and kids already moved out....

Known expense are easier to deal with...

Overhauling an engine is pretty well known.

Overhauling a prop is pretty well known.

Finding out you have to buy a new one still comes as a surprise...

Did I capture the basis of your question?

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

My 2 cents:  

 

Buy exactly what you want to start with.  You will be money and headaches waaaaay ahead of buying something that needs "some work" to bring it up to your expectations.

 

If you can't find exactly what you are looking for.....wait to buy until it comes on the market.  If you can't afford what you want, it will not be cheaper to buy something less and then "up-grade" later.  The only possible exception is a plane with an over-TBO engine that is fully discounted and you have figured in the cost of the next engine.  (Most sellers are loathe to discount enough.)

[ArtVandelay]

My 2 cents:  

 

Buy exactly what you want to start with.  You will be money and headaches waaaaay ahead of buying something that needs "some work" to bring it up to your expectations.

 

IF it was only that easy, given the $60K price range, you will not get exactly what you want, prioritize your needs. Also somebody I think on this group said that you should have 15-20% of the plane's value in the bank for 1st year maintenance items, whoever said it was correct. Owner's who are selling tend to defer maintenance.

[ArtVandelay]

Thank you for the info. I had heard that the longer body aircraft are the way to go with 4 adults but I have not had a chance to actually verify it for myself.

I recommend this link, it shows the difference between the long/short body models as well as a great overview of the F model:

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20F%20Evaluation/M20F_Evaluation_Report.html

[Bies7d2]

Again I appreciate all of the information. That is a great article about the differences between the F and other pre J models thanks, I think I might have read it months ago but still a good read. I am not married nor do I have any children so my need for a 4 place is based on more of a periodic need than a regular one, so I don’t think I will completely rule out E models.

 I am a little curious what a realistic price point would be for an IFR ready M20F or E with no major required maintenance (ie engine/prop overhaul)? I have time to re-budget since as someone said earlier initial purchase cost is one of the few one-time expenses. I have heard that about the first year maintenance as well, I had kind of assumed that would be the case with sellers delaying maintenance. Fortunately deployments are good for my savings so that shouldnt be much of a problem.

 I may be showing my ignorance but is there a simple way to tell the TBO for IO-360-A1A engines without knowing the engine serial number? Lycoming has a pretty good spread from 1200-2000 hours depending on certain factors,  bearing dowels, camshafts and the like.

Thanks again everyone, I enjoy all of the opinions.

 

Phil

[Tom]

Practically speaking, all non-turbo Lycoming IO-360 engines have a TBO of 2000 (which also is routinely reached without a top overhaul).

 

Realistically, you can find a decent IFR ready E/F with less than half time on the engine and at least a PC wing-leveler for less than $40,000.  Such aircraft do come up at least a couple-few times per month (particularly E's) but don't last long on the market   Key is to have cash on hand, look constantly, and act quickly.

[Mooneymite]

Saying "IFR" is like saying "Texas". It covers a wide expanse. Determine what your specific requirements are and look for that equipment. Remember that with the ADS-B mandate looming, a WAAS GPS may be a big deal. You may only pay a $3000-5000 premium for an installed WAAS GPS, but to install one will cost you $10-15K. Same logic with full-up auto-pilots, bladders and stormscopes. Like I said, find what you want and buy it, even if it means delaying your purchase until you can save up what you need. $60K can buy you a cherry C, or E, but only an average, to below average F, so the model you buy can really tilt the scale.

Be aware that older Moneys had non-standard instrument layouts. Flying IFR in them takes some getting used to particularly if you'll be switching back and forth with a military aircraft. Many of the older models have been upgraded to the "sacred six" layout, but it's something to be aware of when you discuss "IFR". Most newer Moneys are IFR capable if the pitot static/transponder check is current, but they might not be what you want for hard IFR.

I live in a fly-in community where many of us are hopelessly upside down investment-wise in our airplanes. For most of us it was a labor of love/enthusiasm but financially we'd have been better off taking our time shopping and buying the plane we wanted. Do you really want to own a plane that you've put $80,000 into that you can only hope to sell for $50,000, or do you want to buy that $50,000 plane that someone else has put $80,000 into?

[Bies7d2]

I guess I should have been more specific. I would like to find an aircraft with a standard 6 pack. My usual ride is full glass with digital moving map and no ability to shoot r-nav approaches due to its volatile memory. So any other airplane I fly takes some getting used to (even other full glass planes with different lay outs). I really just want to be able to be comfortable in the weather and be able to shoot ils/vor/tacan approaches. All of the steam gauge aircraft I have flown have had slightly different avionics but I am partial to the hsi on the b-200 (no idea who made it or what it was called). I was not aware of the mandate until I read about it here, sounds like a pain.

[Marauder]

I guess I should have been more specific. I would like to find an aircraft with a standard 6 pack. My usual ride is full glass with digital moving map and no ability to shoot r-nav approaches due to its volatile memory. So any other airplane I fly takes some getting used to (even other full glass planes with different lay outs). I really just want to be able to be comfortable in the weather and be able to shoot ils/vor/tacan approaches. All of the steam gauge aircraft I have flown have had slightly different avionics but I am partial to the hsi on the b-200 (no idea who made it or what it was called). I was not aware of the mandate until I read about it here, sounds like a pain.

As was stated above, you are going to find a wide range of configurations in these Mooneys. Older non-standard panels (they were standard in their day) have been frequently upgraded -- but not all of them. I still see many 1960 vintage planes with original panels. The avionics driving the panel will range from primitive to current state. But even more important than the panel is the condition of the airframe and engine. I would concentrate on finding the best equipped and maintained plane for the money you have to work with.

There are a number of decent planes out there. Just take your time to find the right one for you.

As for adjusting to planes, yep been there and done that in my own plane as well as for rentals that I used over the years. In my plane, I flew 22 years with the same basic VOR/ILS, non-HSI equipped panel. I got real comfortable with every button and knob on that panel. When I upgraded to glass and GPS, there was a learning curve. I always liked Yeager's line "It's the man, not the machine". The "machine" is going to do (or not) what it is designed to do. It was me, the man, that needed to figure out how to fly it. And that is part of the challenge and allure to aviation, isn't it?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tom]

Another dynamic to consider is the possible changes to Part 23 to allow for owner modifications and/or if the 3rd class medical goes away.

 

We all have our own opinions on the likelihood that these things will occur and the ramifications that they will have, but I believe that it is coming and I think that it will increase the value of the aircraft across the entire GA fleet.  I think that now is a good time to buy.  At the same time, for planes like old Mooneys that are unlikely to be used commercially, it seems unlikely that many owners will maintain standard certification, or, that potential buyers would be willing to pay at 20%+ premium for a "completely certified" aircraft, where an alternative under owner-maintenance is less cost with a better panel and autopilot. 

 

As such, as an active buyer myself, I'm not willing to pay a premium for a glass panel or even at this point a 6-pack.  Even TSO'D EFIS prices are dropping while Ipad apps and hardware are attainable at a fraction of a panel-mounted unit. 

[Mooneymite]

Another dynamic to consider is the possible changes to.....

 

Watch out!  You'll get analysis paralysis.  

 

Like picking a wife:  evaluate all the pros and cons of all your girlfriends, but marry the one you love.

[jetdriven]

IE do not fall in love with new paint. That usually doesn't end well.

[Mooneymite]

IE do not fall in love with new paint. That usually doesn't end well.

 

+1

 

As one broker told me:  "Paint sells airplanes."

 

However, a new paint job is not necessarily a bad thing!

[Bies7d2]

Thanks everyone, I am really enjoying this forum. If anyone sees something that they know is a good deal send it my way. Im really looking forward to getting home so I can start physically looking at planes.

[Mooneymite]

Two recent F ads from Barnstormers.com:

 

1967 MOONEY M20F EXEC21 • $37,500 • MOTIVATED SELLER • N9642M , 3839 TT airframe, 285 SMOH , 210 SNEW prop. Garmin 430, panel mount Gramin 496 with xmWX, Garmin GMA340, King KX 155, King KT 76a xponder 2010 interior, original paint. 2003 Minor damage history from a gear up landing. March 2015 Annual due, March 2016 IFR due. Flown Regularly. Moving to a twin must sell. • Posted July 15, 2014 •

 

MOONEY M20F NEW ENG NEW PROP. • $52,000 • PRICE SLASHED • Very Fine200Hp 1968 Mooney Executive M20F. ATT 2180.17, Engine SMOH 3.1, Prop since new 3.1 No Damage History Engine and prop done at owners request after minor prop strike. King Radios including KLN 35A GPS, KX 155 Nav Comm, KX 125Nav Comm, KT 764 XPDR and KMA 24 Audio Panel. Very nice paint always hangered and clean interior. Engine overhauled by certified repair station and propeller is new three bladed Hartzell. New nose wheel biscuits. Annual due in November 2014. transponder cert. due Sept. 2014. New starter. This aircraft is ready to fly with no additional work or effort required.   Posted July 15, 2014

 

 

The devil is in the details.  Learn to ask "all the right questions" BEFORE you spend a fortune travelling to look at all the supposed cream puffs out there.  Sometimes it's what's NOT in the advertisement that's more telling than what is!

[MB65E]

I'm beginning to think a really nice J would be cheaper than my E. Lol!! Systems wise, in theory, a J should not be any more expensive than an older E or F. In my case, I bet the MX is a lot cheaper!

Lots of work this year again on ours...

Just make sure whatever it is had flown over 50hrs for the last 10years. Mine was not...

Thanks for your Service, good luck!

-Matt