Rocket vs Ovation (or others)

[PhredPhantom]

Hey, folks,

 

First a little bit of background:

 

I'm new to MooneySpace but not new to Mooneys.  I had a couple of Mooneys a few years back and then got into aerobatics with a high-performance aerobatic biplane.  Then I got 3 kids in college at the same time and eventually the airplane had to go.  Now they're all grown and moved away and my wife and I want to get another Mooney to go visiting children and grandchildren.  I've been out of the flying game for about 6 or 7 years now.

 

I have an ATP and about 3K hours of time; mostly in fighters but about 450 or so hours in Mooneys in years past.  I'm looking for a good and fast IFR plane that won't need overhaul soon barring unforseen circumstances.  The mooneys I had before were a M20C and a M20E so I don't have experience with turbocharged engines but I'm a careful learner.

 

My piggy bank has about $180K in it and I've been looking at Rockets and Ovations or maybe a M20M Bravo.  Seems that many of the ones I'm finding on Trade-a-Plane, Controller, and Barnstormers are nice looking planes but I don't have enough recent experience to make an informed decision about which way to go.

 

I'd appreciate any input that any of you guys (or gals) have that would help me decide which way to go.  Any tidbits at all would be greatly appreciated.  

 

I'll hang up and listen.

[KSMooniac]

Welcome!

 

Where you live and where you plan to fly will have the most bearing on whether you want or should go for a turbo vs. a non-turbo.  They are more expensive to own/operate (not necessarily to buy, though) but offer a lot more options.  Rockets, Missiles and Ovations are Continental engines while the Bravo is a Lycoming.  Ford vs. Chevy, if that matters to you.  Ovations and Bravos can be commonly be found with TKS as well, if that matters.  A little harder to find on a Rocket or Missile.

 

Since you've been out of GA for a little while, you might want to start with the Advanced Pilot Seminars (www.advancedpilot.com) and learn all about piston engine ops, and how to use an engine monitor.  There is a live seminar this weekend, and there will likely be another in the fall.

 

As far as avoiding an overhaul soon after purchase...that is a complete crap-shoot.  Both engine factories have had and continue to have numerous issues putting together engines or even parts that last like they should, or used to in the good ol' days.  Some boutique engine builders go to great lengths to build a better engine, and have reputations to support that notion.  Finding the plane you want with a good engine might or might not happen.  If I were shopping today, I'd lean more towards a runout engine (with a discounted price to match) and then plan to overhaul it on my terms when i choose, vs. paying more for a recent factory overhaul and really rolling the dice.  I'm going through an IO-360 overhaul right now and there isn't anything difficult IMO, but choosing a good shop that takes care of all the little details goes a long way towards a better engine.  There are a lot of steps the factory doesn't do, and their tolerances are much larger for balancing things, for example.  

 

Most importantly, focus on finding a good airframe with no corrosion that has been flying and maintained regularly.  Try to get all or most of the avionics you want already installed, because adding things these days is really, really expensive.  You very likely won't get a G1000 plane with your budget, and I think that is a good thing b/c the upgrade path for those is terrible and expensive.  

 

Some of the earlier Ovations seem to be good buys to me, like this one:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68924

 

Rockets and Missiles are tremendous values IMO compared to the capability.  They are good conversions and still supported.  In your budget range a nice 252 or Encore (220 hp M20K, gross weight/useful load increase) might be worthy of consideration.  

[aviatoreb]

Its simple.  For me at least….Rocket!

[Mcstealth]

If you want to stay away from turbochargers, the Missle is really something else (like an Ovation isn't). You get near Ovation speeds in a short body and the cost is very enticing.

 

My two cents.

[RJBrown]

If you want to stay away from turbochargers, the Missle is really something else (like an Ovation isn't). You get near Ovation speeds in a short body and the cost is very enticing.

 

My two cents.

Missiles are near Ovation speeds. If you consider "near" to include faster.

From a value standpoint the Rocket/Missile stand out. They are more capable than the similar factory offering. 

 I had a Rocket for almost 10 years. 8 years after selling it I bought the J in my picture. For my type of flying it was a disappointing mistake. I sold it last fall. I will buy another Rocket once my home and hanger are built. I am moving to Arizona this Saturday to start my retirement. I will be building on Pegasus airpark. (5AZ3)

The J was effectivly out of climb at 17,000 while the Rocket was still climbing at 1500fpm at 26,000. Normally aspirated aircraft simply dont have the performance reserve to fly safely over the mountains.

[Danb]

DJ..good luck on your retirement..u lucky dog

[sbusuttil]

I went through this a similar decision about 2 y ago - except was com pairing Bravos vs Ovations. Turbocharged plane more expensive to maintain. So question really came down to how often was it truly needed. We live in the east and flight levels above 15k are rarely needed. In addition altitudes around DC and NY are limited and dictated by ATC. We went with an Ovation and have not regretted it. The efficiency increases a little higher so we usually cruise 10-13k but can do well at 6-8k when we don't want to buck a strong headwind.

When looking also looked for planes which already had the GPS updated to WAAS. The early G1000 are not and are expensive to update. Due to our common mission we found one with FIKI, which I consider a safety enhancement not a license to cruise through a major winter storm.

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[FoxMike]

Phred,

I have owed a Bravo for 10 years and find it fits my needs fairly well.  I live in the Rockies and fly over them frequently so a turbo makes sense.  The big things I like about the Bravo are the wet head (if you fly high it really cools the exhaust valve. Also like the larger cabin and the ability to stick my golf clubs in the baggage compartment along with lots of suitcases. On long legs 4.5 to 5 hours I appreciate the extra room.  I like to travel so lots of trips are at least 1000NM. Although I do not use the TKS much, icing is not much of a problem.  The Bravo is not as fast as a Rocket but I think the Bravo has a better engine (although not bullet proof nor fuel efficient).  I have owned two E models and sometimes wish I had one of them back as they are a better handling airplane than the newer ones.  I flew a K model to Guatemala many years ago and found the longer legs were tiring (due to smaller cabin).  The biggest problem is the useful load.  You need 100 gals of gas to go anywhere and that really cuts into useful.  The Bravo averages 10NM/gal which is not very good and the Rockets do better if you keep the power reasonable.  So it really depends on how you want to use your airplane.  If you look at Bravos or Rockets have a competent mechanic do a through pre buy.  You are going to be looking at the older ones with more time on them.  Good Luck!

[carusoam]

Top down...

Question 1) turbo vs. non-turbo...

Question 2) mid vs. long body...

Typical method of defining the mission first.

Bottom up...

Question 1) turbo mid length vs NA long body

Typical method of defining the budget first. The single question is more complex,

Phred, are you still there???

I think we may have lost Phred...

Best regards,

-a-

[PhredPhantom]

Phred, are you still there???

I think we may have lost Phred...

Best regards,

-a-

 

I'm still here.  

 

After reading through the very helpful comments in this thread as well as others and after considering the real way that I will actually be using the airplane, I have come to the conclusion that a non-turbo airplane will probably be most appropriate for the type of flying I will mostly be doing.  I would love to have a really fast Rocket or Bravo but, since I am in the eastern U.S. and that's where I expect most of my flying to be, I think I would probably be wasting good money just for a few extra knots and, in order to get those knots, having to use O2.  

 

I am currently in negotiations for an Ovation.  Hopefully the owner and I can come to an agreement in the next few days.

 

I really appreciate the knowledge represented in the experience of you guys here in this forum.  I have about 450 Mooney hours but all from about 10 years ago.  (I've flown more recently than that but not in Mooneys.)  Your comments and willingness to share your experience and knowledge has been and continues to be invaluable.

 

Thanks,

 

Phred

[carusoam]

You'll love the O!

Since you haven't committed yet...

Have you seen the 310 hp version of the Long Body???

At least to be aware. Many of the Os were born with 280hp. The latest Os or OHs are getting the 310hp engine.

It appears to be noticeably better on T/O and climb...

At least now, you know...

The O1 is still my favorite, but O3 Powered is even better...

Best regards,

-a-

[PhredPhantom]

The one that I'm negotiating for is a 280hp version.  As much as I'd like to have a 310hp Ovation, alas, it it outside my budget.  I can always dream.  Maybe one day I can trade up.

 

Thanks for your advice and comments.

 

Phred

[WilliamR]

Sorry for the drift, but I like the Rhino driver avatar, Phred.

[PhredPhantom]

Sorry for the drift, but I like the Rhino driver avatar, Phred.

 

That's how it all came about.  I've got about 1,700 hours in Rhinos and I delivered the last one that our unit had to another base in 1993 after my unit switched to KC-135Rs.  I flew them for about 150-200 hours before I got out but going from F-4s to tankers is just like getting out of a Ferrari and driving a bus.  It's been 21 years now and sometimes, if I'm really busy with other things, I can sometimes even go 3 or 4 hours without thinking about flying Phantoms.  I was fortunate to have had that experience.  

[sbusuttil]

I may be biased but excellent choice. If all your previous hours were in earlier Mooneys with the 4cyl engine up front I would recommend ding a few hour with a good Mooney instructor. The Ovation, and the Bravo, and Acclaim all have significant weight up front and you sit nearly 5 deg nose up on the ground. Just a weird sight picture when landing. Otherwise they are stable and awesome VFR and IFR machines.

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[aaronk25]

I flew a rocket a month ago gray airplane only thing that was noticeable was on landing as soon as the mains touched down the nose slammed down which is due to the added weight upfront without the benefit if the longer tail which allows for more leverage.

[aviatoreb]

I flew a rocket a month ago gray airplane only thing that was noticeable was on landing as soon as the mains touched down the nose slammed down which is due to the added weight upfront without the benefit if the longer tail which allows for more leverage.

 

A rocket can be landed perfectly well and consistently holding that nose of for as long as you would wish.  It is just a matter of getting used to the pressures.  The airplane has plenty of long enough tail to hold off the landing for as long as you would care once you get used to it.  In fact since the rocket is all I fly, I don't even notice that there is anything unusual.

[aaronk25]

A rocket can be landed perfectly well and consistently holding that nose of for as long as you would wish. It is just a matter of getting used to the pressures. The airplane has plenty of long enough tail to hold off the landing for as long as you would care once you get used to it. In fact since the rocket is all I fly, I don't even notice that there is anything unusual.

Interesting, I only landed once and was sort of hung it on the prop on the way in since I used the same over the fence numbers that I do with my J and the extra weight had me with a bit more angle of attack/sink rate so I bet if I would have carried a little more speed and flew it on to the runway I probably could have kept the nose off. It was pretty impressive how much heavier it was up front.

With that said I'm in the market for a rocket and would buy one before a "O" as the ability to top weather is awesome.

If your flying along at 15k and need to top weather slide the power in and enjoy a 1500fpm climb to 22k or higher. A "O" is a great plane but you just can't beat making full rated power at the altitude of your choice especially when heavy.

I'm a believer!

[Cruiser]

I flew a rocket a month ago gray airplane only thing that was noticeable was on landing as soon as the mains touched down the nose slammed down which is due to the added weight upfront without the benefit if the longer tail which allows for more leverage.

My guess is you flared too much. The sight picture needs to be much shallower with the long cowl out front. If you hold the nose up too high it will definitely come down hard when the plane stops flying. If you hold a flatter angle with the nose wheel about a foot or so above the ground you can touch down on the mains and roll out with the nose wheel very gently settling to the runway.

[Mcstealth]

I may be biased but excellent choice.

 

Yes. You are biased.

[aviatoreb]

My guess is that you came in a bit too slow, with your memory of J speeds, as any K needs a tad more speed, and the rocket stalls at 1kts faster than a normal K.  I bet with 3 or 4 more kts more and you would have been better situated to begin flare.  Plus I bet Cruiser is right too.  Your sight picture from the J transferred to the K perhaps made you flare with nose a tad  too high.

[Beskra]

Phred,

 

I am going to be posting my 310hp upgrade Ovation 1 for sale.  It is well within your budget at $148,000 asking.  I just need to take a few more pictures to be able to post it.  Currently has 1,585 total time, flying regularly.  310hp upgrade was done less than a year ago.  That makes a huge difference.

 

I will have it up shortly.

 

Ben

[PMcClure]

If you don't need the turbo, I can highly recommend an Ovation. 

[Seth]

A rocket can be landed perfectly well and consistently holding that nose of for as long as you would wish.  It is just a matter of getting used to the pressures.  The airplane has plenty of long enough tail to hold off the landing for as long as you would care once you get used to it.  In fact since the rocket is all I fly, I don't even notice that there is anything unusual.

Same with the Missile - You have to be ready for it but can roll it on so sweetly.  Just hold the nose off. 

 

-Seth

[Seth]

If you don't need the turbo, I can highly recommend an Ovation. 

If you find a good Missile - it's a good buy as well - 300 HP with the mid length body. 

 

For your mission an Ovation or Missile both work just fine.  The Missile will be priced lower, however you get the long body which has more cargo room and is a newer airframe usually with the Ovation.

 

-Seth