Colorado Pot

[midlifeflyer]

Not to speak for midlifeflyer but I think you missed his point.  He only said they aren't as likely to drive not that their driving wouldn't be impaired.  A reduced likelihood to drive would result in a lower likelihood of an accident.  I also agree with him that pot smoking is much more pervasive than most think and that there have been pot saturated drivers around for long enough for it to have been statistically relevant already.  I don't recall ever hearing about an accident attributed to pot (clearly an anecdotal statement).

 

You explained my point quite accurately. 

 

Adding to anecdotal statements, I know it's ancient history but  prior to 1994 my law practice included criminal defense work. Handled a lot of DUIs. Came across an allegation of DIU-marijuana once (and it wasn't because pot wasn't being used much; use has been widespread since at least 1970).

[John Pleisse]

Agreed, but the point is........more pot, a greater likelihood of DUI. It's a statistical fact. Suggesting or comparing sparse illegal use with a modern gold rush of legal use in two entire states doesn't strike me as sensible.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Another funny one!

 

[kmyfm20s]

I wonder if they are going to add "IMC in the cockpit" to the MAPA mountain flying curriculum in Colorado this year?

[John Pleisse]

The Democrats want to tell us how we should live and the Republicans tell us how we shouldn't.  Surprisingly, these questions have already been answered on a large scale over a long enough period to give meaningful answers.  Portugal decriminalized essentially all recreational drugs.  All of them including heroin, cocaine, meth, you name it.  The net result has been no significant increase in usage and a huge decrease in regulatory costs and violence.  Not to mention the increased tax revenues.  This question is asked and answered.

 

I'm not saying any of these are necessarily good for the individual using them nor is it condoning those drugs when they are decriminalized (just like legal alcohol isn't encouraging people to use it) but from a larger perspective, society is severely damaged by keeping them illegal.  We have standards with respect to alcohol and operations of machinery and cars and planes that help guide responsible people to make responsible decisions.  With these drugs being illegal, period, how does one make a reasonable decision if one has reasonably used MJ in CO?  And, by the way, while there is evidence that even small amounts of alcohol in the blood can effect driving skills (hence the new discussion to reduce the legal limit to 0.05) there is no evidence to support that it will actually reduce accidents since almost all alcohol related accidents involve blood alcohol levels north of 0.12.  We should concentrate on what matters not what just has some effect of no significance.

 

If you don't like pot, don't use it.  If your worried about refer madness, there is no basis for that fear.  If you care about society more than the individual bent on hurting themselves no matter what, forget about it and let them do themselves in.  They're going to find a way anyhow.

 

Back to my libertarian leanings.  I always try to look where government should get involved and it is always when ones actions interferes with the rights of another and never when ones actions harms themselves (children excluded).  This is an individual knowingly acting in a harmful or potentially harmful manner with only themselves at risk.

 

Mazer.... I love this.....love your point of view, but when people bring up Portugal, it really crawls up my crack. The genesis of their policy was an HIV infection rate that was so off the charts, legalization was their only hope. And even then their drug policy was heavily based on supporting interdiction programs, self harm programs, addiction-cessation support and crime prevention. They had a comprehensive societal plan and it had little to do with personal freedom or civil liberties. It was a public health savior. Far from flicking the switch and going on a state-wide weed binge. Apples and oranges and hardly a model.

[jlunseth]

Yeah, I don't think flying people to CO would be my favorite activity as a commercial pilot.  Aside from the fact that the regs. don't let you just take people someplace in your personal aircraft and charge for it, whether the pilot is commercial or not, there is the issue of the one passenger who does not get the message that they are not welcome to bring some back in their purse, or stuffed somewhere else.  Then CBP does one of their infamous no warrant stops and there it is.  And there goes your aircraft.  And your certificate for having conducted commercial operations without a commercial operator's certificate under Part 119. 

[midlifeflyer]

Agreed, but the point is........more pot, a greater likelihood of DUI. It's a statistical fact. Suggesting or comparing sparse illegal use with a modern gold rush of legal use in two entire states doesn't strike me as sensible.

 

Only time will tell if the fears of those who have been fearing the terrible deadly effects of pot since "Reefer Madness" will be wrong once again. 

 

Your guess is that there will be a major increase of DIU-pot. Mine is that DUI-pot users are far less likely to have the "I'm ok! I can drive just fine!" attitude of they typical DUI offender and that the increase will be pretty insignificant.

 

Is there such a think as a "statistical fact." Sounds like an oxymoron.  

[David Mazer]

Mazer.... I love this.....love your point of view, but when people bring up Portugal, it really crawls up my crack. The genesis of their policy was an HIV infection rate that was so off the charts, legalization was their only hope. And even then their drug policy was heavily based on supporting interdiction programs, self harm programs, addiction-cessation support and crime prevention. They had a comprehensive societal plan and it had little to do with personal freedom or civil liberties. It was a public health savior. Far from flicking the switch and going on a state-wide weed binge. Apples and oranges and hardly a model.

Perfect entry into the most significant part of the whole Portugal thing.  Eliminating the cost of police enforcement, jails, trials, etc with the increased revenue from taxes will provide needed funds for exactly those uses and to help reduce the mental illness lack of care issue really responsible for violent crimes like Sandy Hook, etc.

Thank you.  I couldn't have done it better myself.

[John Pleisse]

Perfect entry into the most significant part of the whole Portugal thing.  Eliminating the cost of police enforcement, jails, trials, etc with the increased revenue from taxes will provide needed funds for exactly those uses and to help reduce the mental illness lack of care issue really responsible for violent crimes like Sandy Hook, etc.

Thank you.  I couldn't have done it better myself.

 

Yes....except the HIV rate, while cut in half, is still twice that of Europe. ( Sandy Hook.....wuh )?

[David Mazer]

Sorry, I guess I brought things together in my head and not on the forum.  I see drug abuse, suicidal behavior, violent behavior like Sandy Hook as all part of the spectrum of mental illness and thus consider any intervention to one a possible intervention to all.  Freeing up resources for mental health should provide benefits on multiple issues and multiple levels.

 

Also, regardless of the original intent, the decriminalization in Portugal has still had many profound benefits that include cutting HIV rates in half (so far and maybe much more to come).  Since we have no choice but to live with the law of unintended cosequenses, we should be quick to utilize the positive ones.

[fantom]

Just trying to think of the last major contribution Portugal has made to the rest of the world, David.

[David Mazer]

IMHO, this would be it.  Destruction of the drug lords/cartels, reduction of international friction over interdiction, reduction in worldwide violent crime, dramatic contribution to our economy through reduced cost and increased tax revenue, resources for mental and communicable diseases (HIV in Potugal) are just a few benefits of their social experiment gone terribly right.  The concept could be broadened to most other vices and further the gains.  Of course, as a dog lover, I'm pretty found of Portuguese Water Dogs!

[jetdriven]

Just trying to think of the last major contribution Portugal has made to the rest of the world, David.

They built the Volkswagen EOS

[N601RX]

At my last job I spent about 8 months in Portugal opening up a new plant.  Generally the people are poor, but are friendly and happy. Other than pickpockets crime was low.   It is common for 3-4 generations to live in the same house.  Big Mac combos were available with beverage of your choice, Alcohol was served in our plant cafeteria.There was no drinking age as long as parents were present, common to go to a restaurant and see parents pouring kids a glass of wine.  The wine was very good and extremely cheap, A friend shipped about 300 bottles back to the US.  My opinion was the government subsidized the alcohol production to keep the general population "happy and content".   

 

Strangest thing I saw was employees kept loosing the very end of the finger in a certain machine in the plant. The machine had safety interlocks to prevent this from happening. It was finally determined that the employee would put the very edge of their finger under the pinchpoint, grit their teeth and turn their head.  Their friend would then reach around them and activate the machine using the 2 finger interlock start buttons.  Instead of asking for a Dr, they would say settlement. The end of a finger was worth about $400.

[scottfromiowa]

SILLY HUMANS...

[David Mazer]

I suppose that is worse then the people I've taken care of for trying to pick up a running lawnmower to trim their hedges (I jest you not and it has happened way more than once) cutting the ends off 8 fingers in the process or to clear the grass from it while it was still running.  These are thoughtless accidents vs intentional disfigurement.

 

Equally bad are the people I get who have swallowed razor blades.  Also not something that is as rare as hen's teeth.  I probably see 2 or 3 a year, different patients, and some patients do it several times a year.  Back to my argument about the need for more mental health care.

[N601RX]

I suppose that is worse then the people I've taken care of for trying to pick up a running lawnmower to trim their hedges (I jest you not and it has happened way more than once) cutting the ends off 8 fingers in the process or to clear the grass from it while it was still running.  These are thoughtless accidents vs intentional disfigurement.

 

Equally bad are the people I get who have swallowed razor blades.  Also not something that is as rare as hen's teeth.  I probably see 2 or 3 a year, different patients, and some patients do it several times a year.  Back to my argument about the need for more mental health care.

The ones that sacrificed the ends of there finger were very careful in doing so.  Just the nail and fat over the end of the bone, but never the bone itself. Medical care over there was different.  Our "insurance" for employees consist of a Dr and nurse that visited our plant twice a week for a few hrs.  During that time employees and their family members could see the Dr.  They could also go to the hospital or Dr for more serious stuff.  There was long waits to have any procedures done, often too long.