KSN-770 certified yet?

[rbridges]

I'm curious to see how things look in 6 months when the dust has settled a little.  still waiting for the kt74 to get the STC to connect to the 430W.

[Hondo]

Bendix King KSN-770   http://ksn.app.bendixking.com/training/

[chrisk]

I'm curious to see how things look in 6 months when the dust has settled a little.  still waiting for the kt74 to get the STC to connect to the 430W.

Should be very soon, if not already.  The KT74 is fundamentally a Trig TT31, which just got the STC to connect to the 400W and 500W series.

[ArtVandelay]

Should be very soon, if not already.  The KT74 is fundamentally a Trig TT31, which just got the STC to connect to the 400W and 500W series.

Done, see KSHAWs post:

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/12233-kt74-integration-with-gns530w/

[flyboy0681]

I sat through the KNS770 online demo and think it's an interesting product. I agree with others here that the interface is sort of klugy, using a combination of buttons and touch screen. Of course I'm biased towards the GTN, but it looks like King added features that I would have liked to have in the GTN, such as the actual display of altitude limits in Class B/C airspace. On the GTN it takes some punching to get to that information. I also like that a heading arc can be displayed, just like the Garmin 530. The GTN only offers a range ring.

 

One thing that jumped out at me was how you would bring up information about a navaid, airport or airspace. The GNS requires you to press the Info key on the left side, then the appropriate key on the right side (Airport, Navaid...) then toggle through the items using the joystick until the item you want to see is highlighted, then press the detail key. On the GTN you would simply place your finger over the item (an airport for example), press it, at which time it would display a screen from where you could display details about the item. Getting out of the item and back to the map on the GNS required a series of button pushing where the GTN would do it by just pressing the Home key.

 

But alas, the GSN has one feature that I've wanted in the GTN since day one - the ability to enter ad hoc holds, just as you could on the Garmin 480. The GNS appears to do this quite easily. Well done King, well done. It's funny to note that the demo contains a blooper. The instruction was to "hold south on the 090 radial".

 

One thing I found totally archaic, if I understood the demo correctly, is that you can't enter a waypoint by punching in the letters from a keypad because it requires you to use the joystick and cycle through the fields and then the letters, much like the 530/430. This outrightly sucks, again, if I understood it correctly, but they didn't present the ability to punch in a waypoint in the demo. Both systems have rubberbanding to change the flight plan via the map.

 

The XM weather appears to be pretty much the same except on the GNS weather can only be displayed with north up while the GTN can display it with track up. If I understood it correctly, when weather is displayed you lose navigation information where the GTN will overlay weather on the moving map while retaining all navigation information. One thing they conspicuously skipped over was how one would bring up a particular METAR, the demo merely showed what it would look like.

 

While the screen layout of the GNS looks good, I don't like that it's "landscape" versus the GTN's "portrait". I realize that it's a function of the size of the unit, which I believe to be the same footprint at the 530, but I find the real estate at the top more important than the sides because I want to see what's coming up ahead, not what's at my side. Here are two pictures of the same route, from the the same zoom  range of 15 miles and same position.

[FoxMike]

flyboy0681,

I appreciate your post comparing the 770 with the GTN.  I went to OSH this year to checkout the just approved King and Avidyne equipment.  The 770 really looks to be a flop.  I see they just sent their President to the locker room.  I wonder if they can get a new version of the software approved quickly that would be user friendly.  They really need a miracle to get the 770 competitive with brands A and G.   

[flyboy0681]

flyboy0681,

I appreciate your post comparing the 770 with the GTN.  I went to OSH this year to checkout the just approved King and Avidyne equipment.  The 770 really looks to be a flop.  I see they just sent their President to the locker room.  I wonder if they can get a new version of the software approved quickly that would be user friendly.  They really need a miracle to get the 770 competitive with brands A and G.   

 

I tend to agree. Not only have they lost valuable time getting to market, but I wonder, just as Jose pointed out, whether Garmin's siphoning off the BK engineers was a strategic move which paid off handsomely.

[Tom]

<snip>

One thing I found totally archaic, if I understood the demo correctly, is that you can't enter a waypoint by punching in the letters from a keypad because it requires you to use the joystick and cycle through the fields and then the letters, much like the 530/430. This outrightly sucks, again, if I understood it correctly, but they didn't present the ability to punch in a waypoint in the demo. Both systems have rubberbanding to change the flight plan via the map.

 <snip>

Interesting review. I think you meant "KNS" several times where you typed "GNS" when comparing against the GTN. I don't think that you meant to refer to the Garmin GNS 480, did you?

Regarding the observation of entering waypoints, in the KNS 770 manual (link below) on the top of page 14 (and in surrounding pages) it is shown that you can enter waypoints by double-tapping the screen which will bring up a QWERTY screen to enter the name of the waypoint. Perhaps this isn't in the demo. I'm curious is this type waypoint entry on the KNS 770 is similar to the GTN models.

http://www.bendixking.com/HWL/media/Pilot-Guides/D200909000026_2.pdf

From a cheap ba$tard stanpoint, the 770 seems to be a strong contender against at least the 650. For about 1 AMU more than the GTN 650 you get a larger screen and the ability to create ad hoc holds (it's probably more fair to compare the 770 to the 650 than the 750). XM weather for the GTN costs an additional 4 amu whereas King's alternative is 2.5 amu or much less used. KT74 is 2.6amu vs 4.4 for the Garmin GTX 330ES. I don't know about the King ADS-in alternative, but a kitted-out KNS 770 should cost several thousand less than GTN 650 if you have add-ons behind the panel.

[flyboy0681]

Interesting review. I think you meant "KNS" several times where you typed "GNS" when comparing against the GTN. I don't think that you meant to refer to the Garmin GNS 480, did you?

Regarding the observation of entering waypoints, in the KNS 770 manual (link below) on the top of page 14 (and in surrounding pages) it is shown that you can enter waypoints by double-tapping the screen which will bring up a QWERTY screen to enter the name of the waypoint. Perhaps this isn't in the demo. I'm curious is this type waypoint entry on the KNS 770 is similar to the GTN models.

http://www.bendixking.com/HWL/media/Pilot-Guides/D200909000026_2.pdf

From a cheap ba$tard stanpoint, the 770 seems to be a strong contender against at least the 650. For about 1 AMU more than the GTN 650 you get a larger screen and the ability to create ad hoc holds (it's probably more fair to compare the 770 to the 650 than the 750). XM weather for the GTN costs an additional 4 amu whereas King's alternative is 2.5 amu or much less used. KT74 is 2.6amu vs 4.4 for the Garmin GTX 330ES. I don't know about the King ADS-in alternative, but a kitted-out KNS 770 should cost several thousand less than GTN 650 if you have add-ons behind the panel.

 

I did mean KNS.  Looking at the manual I do see where one could key in the waypoint, but like I said, the demo didn't present it and I wasn't sure whether the feature was available or not.

 

Your AMU assessment would make me lean towards the 770 if I had a 650 in mind, assuming the panel space was available.

[Bill Dunn]

KSN 770 is a little more than a 650 but worth it IMHO.

[ArtVandelay]

The cost difference now between 650 and 770 is closer to 2 AMUs, Garmin has a rebate going on.

Also the screen size is not that much different: 5.7" diagonal vs 4.9", the 770 sucks up a lot of panel space in process.

[carusoam]

If the KSN goes in...

It would replace...

A nav com box

An ADF box

A DME box

Possibly replace a GPS box... Or keep it for back-up..?

As far as panel space goes. I have plenty and it looks like I will get even more...

Best regards,

-a-

[Tom]

Is this a fairly apples-apples comparison regarding capabilities?

 

KSN 770  $10,575 5.7" Diagonal display
ARX 100  $ 1,695 ADS-B in
KDR 610  $ 2,400 (readily available <$1,500 used) XM weather in
KT 74    $ 2,600 Mode S ES transponder
----------------------------
         $17,270 ($16,370 with used 610)

GTN 650    $ 9,149 4.9" diagonal display
GTN 750    $13,939 6.9" diagonal display
GDL  88    $ 3,499 ADS-B receiver
GDL  69    $ 3,669 XM weather in
GTX 330ES  $ 4,339 Mode S ES transponder

GTX 327    $1,795
-----------------------------
   650 = $20,656 (with GTX 330ES, ok for flight above FL180+), $18,112 (with GTX 327, limited to <FL180)
   750 = $25,446 (GTX 330), $22,922 (with GTX 327)
 

*Edited to include GTX 327 possibility.  GTX 327 does not transmit ES.  GDL 88 is approved ADS-B "out" solution only up to 17,999 feet.  With any brand, FL180+ requires ES.  King KT74 already is ES thus is ADS-B compliant at all altitudes (when connected to an approved GPS source).  Garmin FL180+ flight thus requires an ES transponder box (i.e., the GTX 330ES or even more expensive! GTX33 ES).

 

*All the above based on my reading, research, and understanding.  Please do correct or suggest anything in error.

[flyboy0681]

Is this a fairly apples-apples comparison regarding capabilities?

 

KSN 770  $10,575 5.7" Diagonal display

ARX 100  $ 1,695 ADS-B in

KDR 610  $ 2,400 (readily available <$1,500 used) XM weather in

KT 74    $ 2,600 Mode S ES transponder

----------------------------

         $17,270 ($16,370 with used 610)

GTN 650    $ 9,149 4.9" diagonal display

GTN 750    $13,939 6.9" diagonal display

GDL  88    $ 3,499 ADS-B receiver

GDL  69    $ 3,669 XM weather in

GTX 330ES  $ 4,339 Mode S ES transponder

-----------------------------

   650 = $20,656

   750 = $25,446

 

 

Why would you opt for the GDL 88 & GDL 69? For me it would be the GDL 88 only since it provides subscription free weather and traffic.

[Tom]

Why would you opt for the GDL 88 & GDL 69? For me it would be the GDL 88 only since it provides subscription free weather and traffic.

 

I probably wouldn't add the XM weather initially.  I did place the XM receivers on the list to compare "total package" cost differences as everything Garmin is a bit more.

 

Missing from the comparison are the data subscription costs.  I've got an email in to King with that (and a few other) questions. If data subscription costs are 10-20% less than Garmin it is difficult for me to understand how the KSN 770 will be a "flop."

[carusoam]

Has anyone heard from Peter?

Best regards, chirp, chirp, chirp,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Is this a fairly apples-apples comparison regarding capabilities?

 

KSN 770  $10,575 5.7" Diagonal display

ARX 100  $ 1,695 ADS-B in

KDR 610  $ 2,400 (readily available <$1,500 used) XM weather in

KT 74    $ 2,600 Mode S ES transponder

----------------------------

         $17,270 ($16,370 with used 610)

GTN 650    $ 9,149 4.9" diagonal display

GTN 750    $13,939 6.9" diagonal display

GDL  88    $ 3,499 ADS-B receiver

GDL  69    $ 3,669 XM weather in

GTX 330ES  $ 4,339 Mode S ES transponder

-----------------------------

   650 = $20,656

   750 = $25,446

 

ARX 100 is a receiver only, but GDL88 is a transceiver, if you don't need ES, you can just go with a GTX 327, save yourself ~ $2500 in the Garmin solution

[carusoam]

Are you guys more or less comfortable with a single IP mounted GPS solution?

Spending $10k to have the highest, most capable, back up, nav/com...

Does it make sense to your situation...?

I am leaning towards a single WAAS GPS solution.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

My Nav2 is VOR only, iPad is my GPS backup, but I don't do heavy IFR, YMMV

[Bill Dunn]

I see these numbers you guys are throwing out there and you need to realize it's going to cost quite a bit more than that.

And you would never want a GDL 69 if you have the 88 unless you want it strictly for the music. XM weather is 1/3 the speed of ADS-B.

Everything you guys are talking about is strictly based on personal preference though. If anyone wants a real quote feel free to email our shop. The quote is free.

[carusoam]

Bill,

The additional costs that you are referring to is the installation?

Or is somebody missing some hardware as well?

Would you see any significant savings if a person were considering installing a transponder and another box like the audio panel?

What if...multiple people wanted to purchase the KSN770 to have installed at your location...

These were the questions we were talking about prior to the certification, about a year ago...

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

I see these numbers you guys are throwing out there and you need to realize it's going to cost quite a bit more than that.

And you would never want a GDL 69 if you have the 88 unless you want it strictly for the music. XM weather is 1/3 the speed of ADS-B.

Everything you guys are talking about is strictly based on personal preference though. If anyone wants a real quote feel free to email our shop. The quote is free.

 

I love having both the GDL 88 and the GDL 69A.  Since they were installed at the same time, the extra install cost wasn't that much.  Also, I got the GDL 69A used ($1,200) very discounted from a shop in Australia, where they don't have XM and had pulled it from a plane they got from the US.  I'll display the XM on the G500, Stormscope on the GTN 750 when around convective activity, and FIS-B weather on the GTN 650.

[carusoam]

Today's special prize winner!

Having one of everything, but getting it at a smart discount!

Way to go DK!

I'm looking forward to the screen shots showing competion between ADSB and XM.

There is so much to know about the market and the personal choices...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

My set up is a GTN750, GDL88, GTX327, and GPS696 with XM radio. NEXRAD and traffic display on 750. Music subscription piggybacks on the car subscription for small add on.

[Tom]

I see these numbers you guys are throwing out there and you need to realize it's going to cost quite a bit more than that.

And you would never want a GDL 69 if you have the 88 unless you want it strictly for the music. XM weather is 1/3 the speed of ADS-B.

Everything you guys are talking about is strictly based on personal preference though. If anyone wants a real quote feel free to email our shop. The quote is free.

 

Hi Bill,

How about a quote out here in the open?  Assume removing all the avionics from the following panel except audio panel, then install KNS 770, KT 74, and ARX 100.  Cash price, assume no rush job, owner keeps old avionics.  What kind of price in your shop?

 

Regards.