TFR Violation

[PTK]

Apparently there was a TFR violation over JFK, and I thought I heard it was in fact a Mooney. 

 

Did anyone hear anything similar?

[Jamie]

Nothing showing up on pilotsofamerica.com, airliners.net or liveatc.net. But all that means is that they haven't heard yet, either.

[orionflt]

NJ Mooney had some chat about that, but no real info other then the pilot apparently didn't know there was a TFR or did not know the ceiling of the TFR. he was quoted as saying he was clear of the Bravo at 8500 ft.

[Will W]

I heard it over guard yesterday.  Didn't get the tail number.

[DaV8or]

Whoo! That was a close one! Our country was once again threatened by a small aircraft and survived! This TFR stuff is the stupidest crap ever.

[1964-M20E]

Whoo! That was a close one! Our country was once again threatened by a small aircraft and survived! This TFR stuff is the stupidest crap ever.

I agree. A Cessna traveling at 100kts GS can penetrate to the center of a 30nm TFR in less than 10 minutes.  Maybe some of our military fighter jockeys can enlighten us but I think even if they have a fighter patrol flying in the area on patrol once ATC realizes the plane is going to penetrate the TFR and they radio the patrol fighters, the fighters respond, turn to a heading and engage the after burners to close in and then being he is moving so slowly the overshoot and just rattle his cage a bit.  Later on the second pass they can slow it down and escort him where they want.  Unfortunately if the pilot of the small plane was really intent on doing harm he would have already achieved it by the time the fighters got there or it would leave a very short time window for the fighters to act. MHO

[201er]

Except in all this time, not a single TFR has thwarted any malice. They have never intercepted a plane full of explosives, the TFR didn't make the bad guys wait for a more opportune day, etc. All it has done is caught a bunch of benign negligent pilots, and caused extensive delays and problems for everybody else. Why are our freedoms being violated for a bs security measure that wouldn't even work, hasn't stopped anyone, and wouldn't even work if it were needed?

 

Funny thing is that nobody did anything about this plane unknowingly violating TFR until he was smack over the center of it over JFK. What good did intercepting him at that point do (other than to screw him for the harm he didn't do and didn't realize he could do)?

[flyboy0681]

Whoo! That was a close one! Our country was once again threatened by a small aircraft and survived! This TFR stuff is the stupidest crap ever.

 

With all due respect. with its good looks, decent payload and superior speed for it's class, I like to think it is a big deal   

[PMcClure]

+1

[Marauder]

I think the intercepts are the first line of defense. Trust me, if you get within their defined "protective zone" there won't be any intercepting, at least not with a fighter.

[M016576]

The stadium and other small 3,000 foot ceiling TFRs are the ones that serve absolutely no real purpose other than security theatre. Not much can stop a plane that noses over at that altitude and then impacts the ground 10 seconds later.

The stadium TFR's are there more for the protection of pilots that would be flying over. Basically they are keeping us out of the way so we don't cause a midair with the news helo's, blimps, fly by jets, etc. not really for security, more for safety.

[201er]

The stadium TFR's are there more for the protection of pilots that would be flying over. Basically they are keeping us out of the way so we don't cause a midair with the news helo's, blimps, fly by jets, etc. not really for security, more for safety.

Might be a nice thought, but what good is it if pilots aren't informed of where and when they are?

[Marauder]

The stadium TFR's are there more for the protection of pilots that would be flying over. Basically they are keeping us out of the way so we don't cause a midair with the news helo's, blimps, fly by jets, etc. not really for security, more for safety. Might be a nice thought, but what good is it if pilots aren't informed of where and when they are?

Garmin Pilot shows them. The when is always harder -- you need to be a sports fan.

[PTK]

Might be a nice thought, but what good is it if pilots aren't informed of where and when they are?

 

http://www.aopa.org/Flight-Planning/Tfrs/Stadiums-and-Speedways

 

But if you stay above 1500 feet AGL over them (or 3000 feet to be safe) you're fine. Treat them as if they were power plants.

 

Also when on an IFR plan or in direct communication with ATC they're accounting for them.

[frcabot]

If you really want to get this changed, post comments with the FAA. 

 

Go here and click "comment now" at the upper right hand.

 

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FAA-2013-0784-0001

 

Also, there is a big difference between "in contact with" ATC and "authorized by" ATC. If you are receiving flight following, you may be "in contact with" ATC, but unless ATC has given you vectors or specified that you can ignore or traverse the TFR, you haven't been "authorized by" ATC to bust the TFR.

 

Finally, not sure what the last poster is talking about re 1500 feet AGL. The TFR clearly applies 3000 ft AGL, not 1500.

[John Pleisse]

I used to fly home to central Maryland from Norfolk, VA in the middle of the night. I always asked for "the tour". Right up the Potomac, north of the White House and over NW DC to Gaithersburg, MD. Now it's "The Freeze-".

 

I get every TFR on my Ipad, too. Some seem reasonable, others, pretty draconian. The Presidential bus tour through NY state last summer was an abuse of federal power.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard FRC...

That post above yours is a little hard to interpret, you'll understand him better after a while.

Or you may really shake your head with disagreement. He's a part of the NJ group!

Best regards,

-a-

[frcabot]

Welcome aboard FRC...

That post above yours is a little hard to interpret, you'll understand him better after a while.

Or you may really shake your head with disagreement. He's a part of the NJ group!

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks, glad to be here. Purchased my Mooney M20J in September and love it. Can't imagine ever going back to a Cessna or Piper.

[triple8s]

Doesn't help any that the royal family travels/campaigns continuously.

[frcabot]

Doesn't help any that the royal family travels/campaigns continuously.

At least those are published and you can get info on them pretty easily. I haven't found VIP TFRs to be that much of an issue since they are relatively infrequent and the outer rings + VP TFR can be traversed on an IFR flight plan.

[Buster1]

For the record...most TFRs DO NOT have airborne alert fighter support.  If someone trundles in there unannounced, it's gonna be a while before the fighters get notified to scramble, get to the planes, get started, takeoff, etc etc.  We're talking minutes here, but just realize that the bros ain't airborne 24/7 these days.  Now if it's a certain elected official or major event, then perhaps there are fighters airborne in advance.

 

Additionally, I was also concerned about all the blue Stadium TFRs that seem to be just about everywhere.  Then I found this...

 

Stadiums
FDC 9/5151, issued under 14 CFR 99.7 on "Special Security Instructions," restricts flight over stadiums during major league baseball, National Football League, NCAA, and motor speedway events. The so-called “stadium TFR” prohibits all aircraft and parachute operations at or below 3,000 AGL within a 3 nm radius of any stadium with a seating capacity of 30,000 or more people when there is a major league baseball game, NFL game, NCAA division one football game, or major motor speedway event occurring. This TFR applies to the entire US domestic national airspace system, and takes effect from one hour before the scheduled event time until one hour after the event concludes.

 

BL: They're not "On" all the time.

[frcabot]

Right, they're not "on" all the time and it's very difficult to find out when they are since a) stadiums are not charted on VFR charts for the most part, let alone stadiums of 30K or more only; 2) game times for every little event are not published (at least not in the centralized location they would need to be for effective cross-country planning) (and especially not "end times" which cannot be published since they fluctuate.

 

Frankly, the stadium TFRs are also pointless (as are most TFRs in general). A paper TFR of 3 miles and 3000 feet is not going to stop a criminal intent on killing people from "penetrating" the TFR and crashing his/her plane in the stadium (or into the VP). There is no way to intercept a plane with a 3 mile / 3000 ft zone. So the only people affected by this are innocent pilots who are caught unaware and accidentally enter the TFR because they're not published. What a bunch of BS.

[PMcClure]

At least those are published and you can get info on them pretty easily. I haven't found VIP TFRs to be that much of an issue since they are relatively infrequent and the outer rings + VP TFR can be traversed on an IFR flight plan.

I hate the VIP TFR. I run into them all the time. You can traverse most of them with an IFR flight plan but many lock down t/o and landings at a field for a certain time. When Obama through the first pitch at the World Series the TFR was so damn complicated, I don't know how anyone figured it out. These TFR's only serve to tell the bad guys where and when a soft target will be. Totally stupid in my opinion. 

[bonal]

if they were smart they would just set up a ring of German 88's

[fluffysheap]

The purpose of stadium TFRs is not security.  It is to get rid of banner towing planes.  Note that the TFR does not apply to NHL or NBA games, regardless of seating capacity, because those are played indoors.  They are more like the Disney TFRs than the VIP TFRs.  Flying into or out of Boeing Field or Sea-Tac in Seattle will take you within a stone's throw of both of Seattle's major stadiums.  However, they are both located within KBFI's airspace (or within the Class B for Sea-Tac depending on altitude), meaning you need to be in contact with ATC already.  Being under control of ATC is basically a free pass on stadium TFRs.  I don't think VFR flight following counts, but an IFR or Bravo clearance from approach, or a tower clearance does.  So, basically, it's nearly irrelevant.  Neither Boeing tower nor Seattle Approach make any effort to prevent you from flying over the stadiums, in fact they will often send you quite near them.

 

I have flown around over Denver while the Rockies are playing.  Coors Field isn't exactly near any airport, but it's close enough to KBJC that you might accidentally bust the TFR if not paying attention.  So the airport ATIS always warns you when it's in effect.  That said, I've been on VFR flight following and asked Denver Approach whether I was in danger of busting the stadium TFR and they not only didn't remember it was in effect, they seemed entirely unconcerned about it.

 

I think the biggest risk, and the only one I've heard of anyone actually violating, is if you are flying to some uncontrolled airport near a college that happens to be covered by a stadium TFR.  I think if that is your destination, you ought to know at least if there is a major college there and check the football schedule.  The active status of stadium TFRs needs to be in a standard briefing, at least.  Regular TFRs certainly are.

 

The traveling schedule of the President and VP is publicly available, so no bad guys are learning anything from TFR postings.  If the President goes somewhere unannounced, his TFR is unannounced too.  But that is actually not that common.