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Just wanna say a couple things about a fellow Mooney driver. Something I have witnessed with a couple other Mooney drivers in the past. Except this time it was Me an My Family in need. So this last Saturday my family an I took a quick 52min trip from DRP to MEZ to accompany the in-laws at looking at some houses in the area( relocating from Dallas Area). All went well, had a great time with them an seen some nice properties. Sunday rolls around for the departure home an we make our way to the airport around 2pm for the trip home. We load the Rocket up Strap in an prepare to light the fire. It was a cold night an a cool day so I hit the ol girl with 10-15 seconds of low boost then turned the prop. She popped an caughed a little bit, but clearly wanted more blue coolaid. Turned the switch off an prepared to prime some more but the starter was still turning the propeller. Master OFF stopped it!!!!! Master ON engine turns over!!!! Called my A/P an he said I needed to peck on the relays lightly inside the Battery compartment. Thought one maybe hung up. Doing so then walking around sticking my hand in the side window flip the master on/off to verify if I was getting anywhere with this. I wasn’t. The last shot at this ended with me flipping the master On then Off agin with the props still turning for awhile with master off, Starter fully engaged an cranking!!! Bout needed some new Huggies after that. During Conversion with my A/P bout this, he had mentioned Bryan had an issue with a Relay(s) at some point in the resent past, May wanna give him a call, So I did. Just to pick his brain. We talked about my issue for a couple Minutes, Then he offers to come give me an my family a ride home. Now this is Sunday Folks when most guys like me are in the process of making sure nobody steels the recliner. Not this guy. Like a warrior he herd a Mooney was down(broken), an he was willing to throw out a lifeline to some folks in need. Bout 40-50 minutes after we talked 755FM rolled on at Mena to scoop us up. Flew us our Luggage an a football home while giving me a hour of solid instruction on the Ins/Outs of the GTN750( Impressive black Box to say the least). We get to my home airport right at dark. Tried to put some Gas in his Encore, but the fuel pump card readers screen was unreadable. So he went Home with No Gas, No Compensation of any kind!! He wouldn’t even Consider it. The Selflessness of one, made the day for three much less stressful. That’s something I have witnessed on a few other occasions with people in this community, an it’s something that will not be soon forgotten. Bryan is a hell of a Guy. This is a great Brotherhood to be a part off!!!

I just want to say thanks for posting your experience here, despite knowing what would be coming your way from some of the locals. I hang around here for the camaraderie and to learn, and I learned quite a few things from your thread here. Unfortunately, I wonder how many experiences others have had that won't share them knowing the often unproductive comments made about their intelligence/decision making/skills that would follow. I'm not saying there can't be constructive criticism offered, but it is apparent reading through the comments in this thread which are helpful to the dialogue and which aren't. If we can foster the kinds of conversations that encourage people to share their experiences, the good, bad, and ugly, I think we will be much better off and all have a greater knowledge base to draw upon. Again, thanks for sharing.

Auto mechanics say the same thing about Porsche's and BMWs. I'm still not driving a Ford or Chevy.

When the weather is bad, go IFR. If it’s REALLY bad, go VFR!

This was exactly my thought process. And I want to be clear, I posted this not because I think it was "neat" but to demonstrate that even with what I thought was a pretty safe plan, I still found ice and to document what I did when it happened. I knew there would be a couple folks who couldn't help themselves and would act like they always do, but I'm not afraid to post my mistakes so that others learning after me can come here and find examples and file it away in their library of how and why things happen. So, it's fine with me that I got attacked. And called inappropriate names. I knew what I was getting in to.

Ok... i’ll Swing the bat here... as a pro-pilot (well... someone that gets paid to fly as my primary job, anyway)... It sounds to me like the plan was adequate- and let me know if I’m missing something... the pilot planned an IFR flight in VMC. The terminal area had a layer between 5-9K, but with VMC prevailing for ~4500’ below said layer. Freezing layer was forecast just below the tops of the clouds. Gusty winds, but nothing outside the relm or workable if they were down the runway (0 crosswind component). No sigmets/airmets for icing. No pireps for icing. I would have made this trip- with the “escape plan” being a descent to warmer air should I pickup ice (unforecast!) on the approach. Which is exactly what the OP did. Things that would cause me to cancel this flight: known ice in the terminal area (pireps showing ice and altitudes associated with them). A freezing layer to the ground (ie- no “out” either below, or geographically). In this case, the pilot was legal, and had mitigated risk by having a plan to get out of any icing should it occur. Seriously- this particular case is pretty cut and dry in my mind and probably the limit of how I personally employ my own light civil in the winter (and mine has tks-anti ice)... but I don’t think it was anything crazy, unsafe or illegal. The key here being that the pilot is VMC for the majority of the flight, The cloud exposure time is exceptionally small, the freezing layer is all the way up at the top of the cloud deck, and a safe, warm escape exists in the 3-4K’ of VMC conditions below the lowest decks (and probably throughout the lower cloud mass as well below the FL) JMHO

Pre-buy is a much more reasonable approach for considering a purchase than an annual inspection. Look at the big things first (airframe corrosion, fuel tanks, compressions, autopilot, avionics, etc.) If there's a deal breaker you stop the inspection, close it up and your costs are less. After you check over the big things and they are ok, if you want you can turn it into an annual, but if the annual is not due it's nice to have the annual done closer to home. Others have probably told you this, but don't get emotionally attached to the airplane until you've had a qualified Mooney specialist do a good pre-buy. Remember it's not your airplane until you close on it. There are no deals too good to pass up.

Winds bother you? When I see winds over 20kts at the field I drop what I'm doing and go flying if I can. Of course, maybe it should actually be guys like you the rest of us should be worried about hurting our rates. You're afraid to fly in anything but calm winds and CAVU, and the first time you get caught when it isn't... Bad news for the rest of our insurance bills.

We should all just turn in our instrument ratings. Instrument flying is only for the airlines. We are just clogging up the system.

I spent over $5,000 a couple of years ago trying to get the Wing Rock in HDG, NAV, and APPR mode removed after installation of the G500. It still is unsatisfactory in those modes. I'm not willing to spend any more money on the KFC 150. While I don't like the fact that an ILS would need to be flown manually should GPS fail, the GFC 500 seems the best REAL solution as of today.

Welcome. You will need to put more information under your avatar. Folks near your location may be available to provide in-person help. Your question is so open ended that there are about a million answers, so narrowing it down will likely get much better answers. I have a K model, but in many instances, the answers may be the same. With your last name, you may haves some problems proving you have no connection to me

No way! This is a J owner. Us true vintage owners buy new stuff! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

No.

I’ve spoken to some A&Ps that share that attitude, particularly with respect to the older Mooneys. One I spoke with said it wasn’t so much the airplane, it was that the owners were such cheap ba$*ards that they never seemed to want to pay what it would cost to fix things properly. Then he said “but not your Mooney, I’ll work on it anytime you want.” Maybe it helps that I pay my bills on time... How many hours do these mechanics have flying Mooneys?

Yes, it was. Just like every other trip where I decide to get in my plane. If I wasn’t willing to risk my life and the rest of you having to pay higher insurance rates, I wouldn’t even have a pilot certificate.

The more I interact with Aspen and Avidyne, the less I like Garmin.

Well I wish I was a lot closer to you as I enjoy tedious electronic work. On the other hand, as I approach the middle of my estimated lifespan, I'm starting to find it easier to just "pay it done" and work an easy overtime shift at my employment in lieu of being upside down and jammed into the footwell of a Mooney.

We had some freezing thunderstorms forecast out here in Oregon last week. I thought about running out to the hangar, pulling out the plane and turning on the Stormscope to watch it! Then I stayed at home next to the fireplace...

Thanks @Cody Stallings for the kinds words. There are many people here that would have done the same. Let me know when we need to go rescue the fire-breather.

Personally, I don't really think you would need it if you have a Rudder Trim System installed and I would sell and install it, if you really wanted it. However, if you were to ask my opinion, as one of my customers, I would suggest you NOT do it because I agree, you really aren't getting as much as what you are paying for on a long body. Just my opinion.

You’ll need to tell us what you already have so we can spend your money wisely. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Here is the real difference. [emoji1787] All out Cherokee. Mooney Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

What avionics item should I throw money at now? I want to ensure I am part of the country club of Vintage CB Mooney owners!

As far as the additional time? I am guessing an additional 10-15 hours at the most. The install is pretty straight forward and I, personally, am willing to have owners assist in the installation because it would keep the costs down for them. I would concentrate on the Wiring and they can concentrate on the mechanical parts of the installation. To me, THAT is what is lacking in this industry. We used to have that type of maintenance, I call it "The Mayberry Feel". That is actually one of my motto's for my company.

If anyone has any questions about the GFC 500, let me know. The installation is pretty simple and I can help as much as I can. Not that this is breaking news or anything, but.......The STC has been approved for some models, see below: 1.10 Mooney M20M, M20R, M20S The documents in Table 1-10 apply to Mooney M20M, M20R, and M20S aircraft that were manufactured without Garmin G1000 Integrated Flight Deck Systems. Table 1-10: Mooney M20M, M20R, M20S Title P/N Rev GFC 500 Autopilot with Electronic Stability and Protection Part 23 AML STC Installation Manual 190-02291-00 6 GFC 500 Install Manual Addendum, Mooney M20M/M20R/M20S 190-02291-17 2 GFC 500 Autopilot with Envelope Stability and Protection Part 23 AML STC Maintenance Manual 190-02291-01 3 Airplane Flight Manual Supplement GFC 500 Autopilot with ESP Installed in Mooney M20M/M20R/M20S Series 190-02291-18 1

Don't walk away. Run. Unless you are specially knowledgeable you don't need these sorts of problems. Lots of aluminum Mooneys with normal airplane problems most mechanics know how to fix. No such thing as a cheap airplane. One of the regular posters here has a long list of "cheap" airplanes that wound up being spectacularly expensive. I myself consider an out of annual airplane to be scrap, and wouldn't pay any more than scrap value for it. My thinking is if it isn't airworthy, what is it? Granted, an airplane 3 days out of annual I might consider differently. My guess is a wood airplane showing delimitation hasn't been in annual for a long time.

You keep mentioning that you are told. Who is telling you? Is it the owner or a mechanic? Find a mechanic familiar with this type of construction and proceed with caution. Don't trust anything a seller says. Do some research yourself and get a competent mechanic to provide suggestions.

My BMW is nice. But I’ll have to take you for a ride in my Dmax.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Welcome aboard, 5T. Nice auto pilot too. Got the right seat model. Best regards, -a-

I don’t doubt it. He called me two weeks ago after I left a couple messages. He hard sold me and told me he needed to buy some valve stems and complained that he needed money to buy stems and someone else didn’t pay him. He asked me to pay him and he will order stems and make one and ship to me... I said, sorry, I don’t finance other people’s business and to call me when he has something to sell. Never heard back from him after he promised he would get some new stems the following day. Your comment totally rings true to my intuition when speaking to the guy.

An alternate way of looking at that would be to start out IFR, but be continuously asking the question of when to cancel and proceed VFR. Kind of how you're supposed to continuously be looking for an emergency landing location if the engine were to quit.

I honestly can't say 100% no. I took the information available at the time and decided the margins were wide enough to go. Given an identical scenario, I probably would opt to go VFR instead. The flight home was a route of my choosing, at an altitude of my choosing. I filed IFR merely for the convenience, but in this case I ended up in worse weather than if I hadn't.

This sounds like an awesome experience. Could be an annual "work" meeting I need to attend. October 4 - 6 in Ogden Utah , I'm putting it on my calendar.

He comes across as strongly patronizing to me, with a truckload of arrogance thrown in. It makes me skip over his comments, because I get tired of being talked down to over and over and over again. No, my Mooney doesn't have two turbojet engines, a copilot and a dispatch crew to figure out the flight plan. But in twelve years of ownership, I have yet to get lost, day or night, windy or calm. Maybe Jimbo can figure out how to make his sarcasm sound sarcastic? That's so much better than how he has been sounding in this thread. Yes, i am serious.

So the real question is would you make a similar flight again? I would have a hard time answering that. Many times icing is widespread (especially descending through layers) so the 180 escape would not do much good. Could the plane carrying ice climb back on top? What if control had you hold in an icing layer for traffic? I don’t think anyone is criticizing the steps you took after entering ice. I think everyone is just expressing things can go downhill quickly with very few get down safe options.

Given that would not be possible, it’s about as relevant as uh...well I’m at a loss to imagine something less relevant than applying an impossible scenario. “Well Captain, what if you’re Falcon X didn’t have anti-ice” ”Well actually, all Falcons are equipped with anti-ice” ”Are you deaf, I SAID WHAT IF”

Maybe you guys can help me. After 28 years of ownership, I am thinking about dropping some serious change on a new paint job. Just not sure what scheme to use? I was thinking maybe a John Deere green, but Cub Cadet yellow has always been a favorite. Not sure I am happy staying with the Toro red. Any thoughts?

Summary... a tough one.... 1) Some people really know what they are doing.... 2) Experts share their knowledge and encouragement... 3) I appreciate the links of various weather sites and charts on how people make their decisions so I can better my own... 4) Where the wings fall off in this thread... It’s not just what you write... It’s also how you write it... 5) Looking back at this thread... the local news guys will say... a pro-pilot calls his personal plane a lawn mower... He wouldn’t fly in these conditions... why would a novice take these risks..? the hopes and dreams of GA die quickly with this type of banter... 6) The pro-pilot looks back and says... i told you so... i had good ideas... i wasn’t able to express them properly... i didn’t mean that... ooops, my bad... 7) The FAA sets our limits... Are they too loose? would we want them tighter? Should we make more training mandatory so Brice doesn’t take these known acceptable risks any longer? 8) When you are a person in a position to speak from a platform... think about the side effects of what you are saying... 9) Things happen... We run out of gas We fly VFR into IMC We graduate, we go on to get an IR... We fly into thunderstorms We fly into icing Our planes are more than capable to avoid the onset of these issues. Our pilots are more than trained in how to get out of these situations. Recognize, decide, execute... don’t wait... 10) what limits our freedom... is a pro-pilot who accidently says he wouldn’t do that, so you shouldn’t either... 11) Don’t worry about one person raising another person’s insurance rate... that can’t happen... like one person’s excellent flying skills couldn’t lower everyone else’s insurance.... Capitalism works... 12) I should get a discount because pro pilots fly Mooneys quite safely... they can be very safe, so I could be too.... here you go mr. carusoam here’s your discount because Jim’s a great pilot.... how many hours do you have? This year? Last 90 days....? The discount gets pulled, because you haven’t had a GU landing yet.... (you’re the other type of pilot...) 13) Don’t be angry with people that have difficulty putting their words in order.... try to help them with their individual challenges... 14) Know that we are all human beings... there is plenty of room for improvement... in our flying, preparation, and in our discussions... 15) Focus on the challenge, not the individual... 16) Here’s to Brice! You brought forth an interesting flight situation. You handled it well. You shared it with the MS community. You handled the backlash admirably. Way to go, Brice! 17) I have also been a fan of... white water canoeing in high, cold water in April... flying in strong winds to practice my skills... 35kts down the runway, in a fully loaded M20C.... using a runway that needed x-wind controls, when another runway was better suited... running.... which is not always good for your health... 18) If a guy had a heart-attack already... then went out for a jog after he recovered.... will a Pro-Pilot’s health insurance get raised? Not with capitalism in control.... Briefly... Watch what you say... and how you say it... that CAN affect a lot of people... If nothing else, it helps keep people from hitting the ignore button... Some people just don’t know when to let up.... (me included. ) Go MS! Best regards, -a-

If this keeps up, I will block Jim just so I don't have to read his repeated put-downs of both Mooney aircraft and Mooney pilots. He has an advanced case of "Big Iron Disease": anything that isn't a multiengine turbojet with multiple backups for everything is a deathtrap, and should be parked in anything but ideal weather. 20 knot wind is not a problem. There are places in the country [obviously not near Jim's home in Florida] where 20 knot wind is considered a calm morning. What matters to me is the combination of wind strength and runway alignment. 20 knots down the runway is no problem at all, just turn base a little early. Al Mooney lived and worked in Texas and Kansas, and designed, built and flew all of his planes in that area. His 20th design was designed and built to handle that.

Is it just me, or does anyone else here wish Jim would either: 1.) stop referring to our airplanes as "lawn mowers with wings" or 2.) just go ahead and sell his Mooney to someone who actually likes small airplanes?

Hey guys, I am a new Mooney pilot and almost a new pilot in general. I have only a handful of hours under my belt officially but have been airborne since I can remember. As I've been training in a Piper Archer for my PPL, which I have not completed yet, I have obtained a Mooney M20J. I was wondering if any of y'all had any pointers or tips outside of the ordinary. Thanks!

with the obscene cost of overhauling those things, just buy serviceable used and throw away.

I think the better question is whether the future of Mooney is uncertain based upon the number of units they are currently managing to sell, which is roughly 14 to 16 per year. This is been discussed many times before as well, but I believe it is due to the cost of the units causing there to be not many takers, as well as the shift in preference to cirrus type aircraft. Probably more of the latter, since Cirrus cost more, and they manage to sell 400+ per year. I think if Mooney could get the cost of an Ovation or Acclaim down to a half million dollars ( probably impossible), they would sell the heck out of them also.

I sense DonK is on the phone with his G contact... I’m Looking forward to his next awesome project! Best regards, -a-

Has the GFC 500 been approved for INSTALLATION in the M20M, yet?

I’m pretty sure that this guy was full deflection on both needles when he “broke out” on that Oakland approach.... it was a little hard to see exactly what he had dialed up... but it was at the very least a “non stable, 2+ degrees off” approach in IMC. I’m fairly certain he had lost total situational awareness of where he was on the approach until he broke out, below glideslope, and nose down. He should have gone around well prior to that point. This second approach is a classic “there it is!” Below mins and inside the VDP. His mains didn’t touch down until he was half way down the (remaining) runway.... and that runway looked wet to me. He taxied off at the end... and he was still trucking pretty good. He probably got on the binders pretty hard to make that happen. He’s lucky he didn’t bullseye a tire (maybe he did). He *needs* more practice. And instruction. Preferably on a VMC day with a well seasoned Instructor. he also needs to stop video taping himself. He certainly does NOT need that distraction.

20 knot winds down the runway, or close to runway heading are great, it just seems like it takes forever to get to the runway on final.

This topic gets kicked around pretty regularly on MS, and usually comes to the same conclusion. Given the passion for the brand, it sorta makes me wonder whether there is a profitable approach to spending factory time on a build-assist program. Mooney sells a set of plans for a J model, certified X-AB, and everyone who is fantasizing about a brand-new mid-body Mooney can have one. The builder dedicates a few thousand hours of his/her time, the Kerrville plant stays active assisting, and we're seeing many more new M20s join the ranks than we would see otherwise. We could have brand new aircraft and all the cheap experimental avionics we like

Have you checked with Aspen about cutting you a deal on the MFD? That’s what got me into the MFD earlier than I had planned. And if the avionics shop is installing the current Aspen non-Max hardware, see if Aspen will offer the step to the Max at no charge. Don’t work through the avionics shop, go to Aspen and ask who the regional sales person is for your area. Call them and explain the situation. It may be worth the call. I went through my upgrade as a two step process. I installed the MFD and was able to dump the VSI but opted to leave the ASI and altimeter in as well as the vacuum system (didn’t buy the extended battery version) - another hindsight thing. On round two, which included the ADS-B upgrade, I installed an L-3 ESI-500 and dumped the ASI, altimeter and vacuum system. This included cutting a new panel. The L-3 has the Nav enablement turned on and it is a backup to the PFD’s HSI and a backup to the MFD’s HSI. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done it all at once. A second upgrade just adds more costs to what I really wanted to begin with. As a final option, with the Max coming out, if you cannot get them to cut you a deal, why not just wait until the Max is available and get the MFD and not deal with another backup? Phase 1: Phase 2: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro