Looking at selling my 1987 M20J

[mooniac58]

As much as it hurts me to say, I will likely be selling my Mooney in the next 6 months. My business/family has just outgrown the aircraft and I will be moving to a Mirage.  While the M20 is the best in its game - it just cannot haul the passengers/weight I need without sacrificing fuel/range and I really need something that gets into the FLs with pressurization.  I really hoped to keep the Mooney in addition to a Mirage but for multiple reasons (money, the IRS, etc) it will be necessary to sell it.

 

I have owned N5801N for about 6 years now and including the initial purchase price I have invested about $280,000 into the aircraft.  It is likely one of the best equipped M20Js out there.  Below is a list of all the specs:

 

1987 Mooney M20J "Lean Machine"

• ~ 4000 TT (I need to check on the real number it is around this)
• 250 hours since Lycoming factory reman engine (upgraded to A3B6 two mag config)
• Hartzell 2 blade "top prop" conversion.  Approx 500 hours on prop.
• Skytech lightweight starter
• Plane Power lightweight alternator
• New paint in 2009 (white, wine red, gold and black stripes)
• New leather interior in 2009 (tan Aero Comfort)
• Leather wrapped yokes
• Aspen Evolution 2500 glass cockpit (3 "tubes")
• Aspen 2 hour battery backup for full MFD1000 backups
• Vacuum system removed
• RC Allen LCD backup AI
• Garmin GNS 430W
• JPI EDM-930 Primary engine computer
• Stec 55 Autopilot with electric auto trim / GPSS
• Avidyne TAS-600 TCAD traffic integrated into Aspens
• XM Weather integrated into Aspens
• Aspen connected panel (sync flight plans from your iPad to the panel)
• Garmin GMA 347 audio panel
• Garmin SL-30 NAV/COM
• Garmin GTX-330 Transponder
• Lo Presti Boom Beam HID landing light
• Artex 406Mhz ELT
• Bose LIMO style headphone jacks (+ standard style)
• Custom panel cut - powder coated and laser etched
• Tanks resealed in 2011, not a drop leaked since

This aircraft has been meticulously maintained.  You can see a lot of pictures by browsing around my gallery on this site and I will post some as well.

 

I am going to initially offer her up for $175,000.  While this is very high for a J model - this is obviously no ordinary J model - the avionics alone are worth $100,000+ - I had a pretty serious offer at OSH 2011 for $200,000 so I think there is a "right" buyer out there that really wants an aircraft like this that knows doing this to an existing Mooney will cost a fortune.

 

I am not in a rush to sell right now as I am still depreciating the aircraft and at the moment I don't have a suitable Mirage to purchase either.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

What's the useful load?

[fantom]

One amazing J....

 

Want to trade for a cherry 94 MSE? I might even throw in a couple of bucks

 

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/32517-feet-damp/

 

 

[mooniac58]

Probably the biggest negative on the airplane - about 840lbs.  I still am a bit skeptical of this since it supposedly gained 60 lbs after the major avionics upgrade and the pile of stuff that came out seemed a lot heavier than what went in.  In the next few months I will likely take it to another shop for a new weigh.

[KSMooniac]

Wow.  Good luck!  Make sure you check the useful load of the Mirage against your typical trips...

 

Best of luck with the sale, and I agree, that you'll likely have to find the "right" buyer but it is worth every penny.  One would have to compare it to a much later G1000 model IMO with that panel, and I suspect you're a bit low at that price considering nearly everything is very, very recent.  

 

Is is a 2740 lb GW or 2900 lb GW plane?

[fantom]

Is is a 2740 lb GW or 2900 lb GW plane?

 

An '87 would have to be 2740 lb GW, but I don't care.....I'll still trade

[M016576]

That is a beautiful airplane! Whoever picks it up will be happy for years (decades) to come!

[mooniac58]

Yeah, the Mirage will do the trick for sure.  The one that I would like to buy here in Santa Fe (the owners are not sure yet as they are weighing in on a JetProp conversion) has 1356 useful (most are around 1300 but this one has a lightweight prop).  With 120 gal tanks that leaves 636 lbs for passengers and baggage after fuel  Even when my two kids weigh 100lbs each (they are only 2 and 3 years old now) I can still take 100lbs of luggage and go 1000nm at 205KTS, or 1300nm at 175KTS (@ FL220).  

 

We make a lot of trips to Seattle in the Mooney right now (~1050nm).  With my family and baggage I can only put about 50 gals of fuel in which results in a couple stops and a 10+ hour day and really long uncomfortable experience for the wife and kids. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I am really going to miss 140/hr operating costs that the M20J gives me.  The Mirage will be more like $400/hr

 

The next owner of N5801N will be in good shape for sure as I have worked about every kink out of this airplane and replaced/upgraded almost everything except the airframe.

[jetdriven]

Craig, just wondering what the fuel burn and pricing is on a Malibu? I just had a friend buy a 601P Aerostar for 135K (loaded, 600hr engines, new P&I, garmins, etc) , and it probably burns a bit more gas but you get a lot of airplane for the money. its a buyer's market right now, not so good if selling.

[mooniac58]

The Mirage will cruise at FL250 burning 19.5 gal/hr ROP seeing about 210KTS.  I did a demo flight the other day in Santa Fe and we leveled off at 13,500 also at 19.5 gals/hr with CHTs around 340F and we were cruising at about 182-184KTS.
 
I am looking at the Mirages in the 1990-1995 era.  They are pricing in the $300-$400K range depending on specs.  While they are more expensive than the older Cessna/Aerostar twins - the operating costs will be at least $200-$300/hour less when you factor in two engines, two props, more fuel, more oil, and twice the replacement on all the other engine systems.  I believe everything is priced for what it is worth.  Mooneys hold value pretty well because they are the most efficient aircraft and fuel prices are insane and getting worse by the day.  The world is running away from twins and manufacturers are making and selling less twins for about the same reason.
 
The real issues I run into with a twins is:
 
a) I am not multi-rated
b ) insurance companies want to rape me as a new multi pilot
c) insurance companies want 100+ hours of multi time before I can fly solo
d) AVGAS is poised to skyrocket over the next 5-10 years.  Having 50-75% more fuel burn will only make this all the more painful.
 
Just looking at a-c above I would not really be able to start flying my family around in a twin for 8-12 months.

[fantom]

Craig, just wondering what the fuel burn and pricing is on a Malibu? I just had a friend buy a 601P Aerostar for 135K (loaded, 600hr engines, new P&I, garmins, etc) , and it probably burns a bit more gas but you get a lot of airplane for the money. its a buyer's market right now, not so good if selling.

 

One beautiful plane, the twin Mooney is. It's the P that will eat your lunch, just like on a Barron.

[1964-M20E]

Yeah, the Mirage will do the trick for sure.  The one that I would like to buy here in Santa Fe (the owners are not sure yet as they are weighing in on a JetProp conversion) has 1356 useful (most are around 1300 but this one has a lightweight prop).  With 120 gal tanks that leaves 636 lbs for passengers and baggage after fuel  Even when my two kids weigh 100lbs each (they are only 2 and 3 years old now) I can still take 100lbs of luggage and go 1000nm at 205KTS, or 1300nm at 175KTS (@ FL220).  

 

We make a lot of trips to Seattle in the Mooney right now (~1050nm).  With my family and baggage I can only put about 50 gals of fuel in which results in a couple stops and a 10+ hour day and really long uncomfortable experience for the wife and kids. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I am really going to miss 140/hr operating costs that the M20J gives me.  The Mirage will be more like $400/hr

 

The next owner of N5801N will be in good shape for sure as I have worked about every kink out of this airplane and replaced/upgraded almost everything except the airframe.

Craig

Teach you wife to fly get a second Mooney and you will still be less cost per hour than the Malibu.  You could even go to different places at the same time. 

 

[Hank]

Craig

 

Teach you wife to fly get a second Mooney and you will still be less cost per hour than the Malibu.  You could even go to different places at the same time. 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!!

 

Buy a second J, pay for the wife's initial and instrument training, put the rest of the cost differential into fuel. That should last until the kids are in high school. Think how fun it will be to check in with ATC as "Mooney 01N, flight of two"!

 

BONUS:  keep the annuals at different times, you won't be grounded when either one rolls around.

[mooniac58]

I wish!  My wife is already jacked up on Xanax just to get in the damn thing.  She has 0% interest in learning to fly...and boy have I ever tried! I am still holding onto hope that my son and daughter will get to fly...assuming the government still lets us do that kind of thing in 14+ years.

[TWinter]

Very, very nicely done!

[carusoam]

Craig,

Why not the Ovation or Acclaim?

It's like a big J without the insurance hassle of the twin... 1000+ usefull load... Normal sized people will fit in the back...

Acclaim goes pretty quickly at altitude...

The upgrade process would be familiar to you as the J...

Just thinking out loud...

Best regards,

-a-

[mikesalman]

All kidding aside I am willing to trade up 68F with 2800TT 650 on Factory Rebuilt. It has the Johnson bar and manual flaps a Garman 430, JPI 800, 3 axis autopilot nice paint and interior 2 blade prop with 90 hours it also has a lot of stuff I am not familiar with yet.I put 19 hours on her since purchase. I just got my ticket last Sept. and purchased 21NA Jan 22 5 1/2 months ago. She is perfect, NO squaks willing to take it anyware for inspection. If you are interested pm me and you might end up with enough cash to still keep 2 planes.

[mooniac58]

An Acclaim/Ovation would not tick all the boxes unfortunately. I need pressurization (I have little tiny kids that won't wear O2) - I also need more than 4 seats - while my family fits 4 seats my father in law and mother live in town and we always want to include them in getaways to Denver/Scottsdale/etc - you know, so they can babysit!!

 

Plus the wife has been shown the luxury of a cabin class airplane and for the first time she actually looks excited about an airplane.  The Mirage has the cabin of a small jet and is so quiet that headsets are unnecessary for passengers.  I think with the club seating cabin my family will be a lot more comfortable enduring my 4-6 hour cross country trips!

 

Mike - I am sorry but I really need to squeak every dollar out of my Mooney to make the Mirage a reality.  Also being a corporate structure I cannot really have more airplanes in the company than pilots - according to my CPAs that is asking for trouble unless you are a flight school.

[mikesalman]

It was worth a shot, I saw the pictures and fell in love. Don't get me wrong I love my airplane she fly's sweet I just could not justify spending 100K+ for my first airplane. Being so new to flying and never flew a Mooney before purchasing one.

[1964-M20E]

Hey with today’s technology why not set up a second drone type PAX plane. The primary plane and pilot would link up to the second plane wirelessly and the second plane would fly close formation off the primary plane and follow his every move. It would have the destination programed in so if communication is lost to the primary plane it would fly to its destination and land. The PAX planes could be rented when you need more capacity and space and wluld serv as a rental plane other times.  It would be like a U Haul trailer for your plane. Hell the military is probably already flying this for a robotic wingman.   

[John Pleisse]

It's a one-of-a-kind, Craig. It'll bring what you want. Be patient. There are only 5 or 6 out there in the world that even come close.

[jetdriven]

....and I know the other two guys who have them and they ain't selling !

Also, Craig, list it on Beechtalk. Lots of folks list nice airplanes on there and people have money

[Parker_Woodruff]

 

The real issues I run into with a twins is:

 

a) I am not multi-rated

b ) insurance companies want to rape me as a new multi pilot

c) insurance companies want 100+ hours of multi time before I can fly solo

 

 

I wouldn't worry about any of these.  Go  get your multi rating in a few days somewhere, then do the transition training to your cabin-class twin.  Barring any major circumstances I don't know about (loss history, DUI record, etc.) just about anything is do-able in the insurance market right now.

 

I would imagine getting your multi rating and then expect about 25-40 hours dual prior to solo with initial school if it's a cabin-class twin.

[WilliamR]

Craig congrats on being able to move up and thanks for administering this wonderful forum.  Can someone without a Mooney administer MooneySpace?   I, like you, are in the PA-46 market.  I have owned a 252 for 8 or 9 yrs now.  Although I don't have kids, the extra space is really helpful on those long trips with a few friends/family, golf clubs, bags, etc.  The 5.5 pressurization is great.  601P and 602P aerostars have something like 4.8 psi pressurization.  I did the cheap twin vs more expensive single financial modeling.  Assuming fuel prices stay the same and an opportunity cost of cash being zero, I came up with a break even point of about 8-10 yrs at best assuming about 100-150 hrs/ yr flying. 

 

The Mirage is a great airplane.  You may also want to consider the earlier Malibus either with the 520 or 550.  They are lighter (not surprising) and will run LOP 16.5-17.5 gph with about the same speeds as the Mirage which most likely won't run lean of peak.  NBAA Range at LOP is north of 6 hours with standard tanks.  I'm not sure about your thoughts on the heated windshield vs hot plate.  Both are sickeningly expensive to replace.  Obviously, the Mirage has the radar pod which I go back and forth on now that there is XM Nexrad.  Both have their pros and cons.  A good Malibu to consider is Kevin Mead's (the Don Maxwell of PA-46s).  His has a Mirage interior, decent avionics, amsafe seat belts, and the cooling mod. 

 

Like yours, my wife liked the cabin class room.  After flying 3 of us 4.5 hours with full baggage in my airplane, we landed to find an '07 Mirage for sale at our destination.  After 4.5 hours in the 252, sitting in that Mirage was luxurious. 

 

If you haven't already, join MMOPA.  Worth every penny.  Welcome to PM me with any questions.  I have done a huge amount of research.  Now, I just need to take the next steps.

 

William

[mooniac58]

I will post her all over online once I get more serious.  I figured I would post it up here first to see if anyone in our Mooney community was interested.  When I get my crosshairs on a suitable Mirage I will likely post her up on Controller, ASO, etc and perhaps put her in the experienced hands of Jimmy at All American.