VFR into IMC

[FloridaMan]

After a little more thought, I think you need to fly with some good pilots and instructors. I had similar doubts as you when I was going through my PPL. Truth be told, I had nearly 100 hours when I passed my private checkride and had my instrument ticket in another 40. The first handful of instructors I went through were not as good as the ones who I finally got my PPL and IFR tickets with. I would go so far as to say that many of the things that I know that could save me in a situation I did not learn through those first instructors. And there are pilots out there who got their ratings from those guys. 

 

I have between 400 and 500 hours. 

 

I know a guy who, in the 1970s, got into an embedded thunderstorm in a '67E and came out with hail damage all over the bottom of the airplane. 

 

I've had clear air turbulence put me in aerobatics in my Mooney out of nowhere. 

 

What kills people in Mooneys? VFR into IMC, stall-spin on the base-final turn in the pattern, running out of gas and failure of the drive gear in the dual magneto. I don't remember reading of a single in-flight breakup except those involving propellor blades departing and causing the engine to separate. In short, there's a lot more out there that will scare the hell out of you than will actually kill you, and the things that will kill you you probably won't see coming at all. 

 

So where are you anyways? 

[gregwatts]

So..........is this where we start the LOP vs ROP discussion?

[FloridaMan]

So..........is this where we start the LOP vs ROP discussion?

 

That should have been on the first page. 

[Marauder]

So..........is this where we start the LOP vs ROP discussion?

Nope, this is where we start the CamGuard discussion.

[201er]

Nope, this is where we start the CamGuard discussion.

I think we're way past that point. Time to bring in the politics.

[Bill_Carter]

Where was the parrots head set? He should've been given a nice Bose.

[tomn]

Darn, I was going to get to the Camguard thought but Marauder beat me to it - do you guys sleep?

[Marauder]

Where was the parrots head set? He should've been given a nice Bose.

Now, now Bill... we all know parrots wear Halo headsets.

[Marauder]

Darn, I was going to get to the Camguard thought but Marauder beat me to it - do you guys sleep?

Sleep?! I work for corporate America! We gave that up!

[robert7467]

After a little more thought, I think you need to fly with some good pilots and instructors. I had similar doubts as you when I was going through my PPL. Truth be told, I had nearly 100 hours when I passed my private checkride and had my instrument ticket in another 40. The first handful of instructors I went through were not as good as the ones who I finally got my PPL and IFR tickets with. I would go so far as to say that many of the things that I know that could save me in a situation I did not learn through those first instructors. And there are pilots out there who got their ratings from those guys. 

 

I have between 400 and 500 hours. 

 

I know a guy who, in the 1970s, got into an embedded thunderstorm in a '67E and came out with hail damage all over the bottom of the airplane. 

 

I've had clear air turbulence put me in aerobatics in my Mooney out of nowhere. 

 

What kills people in Mooneys? VFR into IMC, stall-spin on the base-final turn in the pattern, running out of gas and failure of the drive gear in the dual magneto. I don't remember reading of a single in-flight breakup except those involving propellor blades departing and causing the engine to separate. In short, there's a lot more out there that will scare the hell out of you than will actually kill you, and the things that will kill you you probably won't see coming at all. 

 

So where are you anyways? 

I am in the Memphis area.

[robert7467]

Thank you guys for everything. I promise that I am not afraid of planes, I am just really shooken up by flying into IMC. I love airplanes so much, I wouldnt have the slightest issue doing aerobatics in one. The only thing I am worried about is this video with my family in the back:

 

 

 

That video is the reality of what could have happened in my situation, or what could happen in the future if I do something stupid again.

[fantom]

Robert, either get back on the horse or don't. That is a decision that only you can make.

 

True dat, and the sooner the better. The longer you continue to agonize over coulda been's, the harder it will be if/when you get back in the saddle.

 

Someone earlier quoted some lines from Top Gun. Here's another:

 

•  Lieutenant Mitchell is restored to flight status without delay.

•  These proceedings are closed.

•  Get him up flying soon.

•  Come on, kid. Get in there. Engage.

Now get off MooneySpace and get in a plane! Good luck!!

[Bill_Carter]

Now, now Bill... we all know parrots wear Halo headsets.

Oh my bad.

[robert7467]

Thanks once again guys.... I am feeling better. This post has recieved over 1100 views, they were able to see my story, as well as your input. I got my message across, and hopefully saved some lives in the process, which was my intention.

[wishboneash]

At what point does the unexpected stop? I have had a lot of things come up on, and luckily I have been able to handle it. At what point should I feel safe enough to know that I have been through all the illusions, and phenomena that is related to flying to take my kids up again? So far I have been through:

 

Door opening twice during takeoff. (I figured out the cause, the intercom button would turn sideways and lift the latch up) The first time happened during my first solo without instructor watching.

 

During final of one of the door opening episodes, my yoke was sticking on the door handle.

 

Wide runway illusion that cause me to flare at 50’ above the runway, which I resolved with practice.

 

After 100hrs I experienced some sort of wind shear during takeoff, and I slammed on my right rudder to correct. I also had it happen a second time recently, but now I expect it to happen, and I am prepared for it.

 

Lost electrical twice (which is now fixed).

 

Landing light going out during takeoff roll. After that, my instructor made me do 3 landings without landing light.

 

Scud Running at 2000’ with ice building up. (I had instrument rated instructor with me, with plenty of airports in route so non-issue)

 

VRF into IMC- The odds were against me, but I survived because of training, and keeping calm. I forgot to add, ATC told me to report right base for 22. I reported right base, and was cleared to land, then a Cirrus reported 2 mile final, and he was cleared to land. I did a 360 and followed him in.

 

It seems for a 100 hr pilot, that I have been through it all, but I know there are other things out there that I need to look out for. Now I know, I need real training. Not the cover your ass just to meet the FAA regs training, but real world training. When obtaining a pilot’s license, the FAA tends to focus more on obsolete navigation, plotting, and all these mathematical equations, when really we are just going to tune into a VOR, or plug it in a GPS, and plan it out on a computer. I worked very hard on my PPL ticket, but I feel like they just handed me my ticket, knowing there is going to be some real dangers that most pilots are not experienced to deal with, and wished me luck on not becoming a statistic. After researching my VFR into IMC issue, I am very fortunate that I didn’t get the leans, or some other illusion that I was NEVER told about.

 

I do know one thing for sure, if I continue on, I will defiantly take a more serious, professional approach to this. As far as flying my family, this has taken a bad toll on me, and I don’t ever want to put my helpless family in that situation again. I don’t know if I will ever recover from this, it is absolutely eating me up inside. I have 2 of the sweetest little boys, who slept in the back seat while they were in a situation with a statistically 10% chance of survival. It’s really hard looking at them in their sweet little eyes, knowing my decisions put them in that kind of danger. I am defiantly not the bubble type. I have been sky diving, I ride dirt bikes, I fly airplanes, and I love adventure.

 

The new airmen certification that the FAA is proposing is quite timely. I think they want to address the disconnect between initial training and real world flying in today's world. See the topic on "Misc Aviation Talk" I personally feel that my IFR skills have deteriorated with all these electronic gizmos (iPads), EFBs etc. Too many distractions trying to set them up correctly, resulting in less time aviating. In the good old days, we printed out the approach plates, carried paper charts, and had the VORs, ADFs and other instruments which didn't require much set up time or fiddling with. The only thing I had was a VFR GPS (the Garmin 195) for situational awareness, but all the IFR flying was done with the instruments in the panel. Come to think of it, it was less stressful then! 

[Bill_Carter]

Thanks once again guys.... I am feeling better. This post has recieved over 1100 views, they were able to see my story, as well as your input. I got my message across, and hopefully saved some lives in the process, which was my intention.

I really can't comment too much. I have fewer hours than you do. I did have an instructor that took me too close to clouds during VFR training. Made me nervous as heck. I think I was more worried about breaking some sort of rule than actually going through a cloud, but I do recall not feeling comfortable with it.

I relaxed a little when I remembered he was a CFII and was capable of handling it. I think he did it for two reasons. First, because we were on a tight schedule, which is the wrong reason. And second, because he wanted me to understand the depth perception factor in determining just how close you are to clouds.

I must say, I am glad we did that and it made me a more confident pilot.

[gsengle]

I really can't comment too much. I have fewer hours than you do. I did have an instructor that took me too close to clouds during VFR training. Made me nervous as heck. I think I was more worried about breaking some sort of rule than actually going through a cloud, but I do recall not feeling comfortable with it.

I relaxed a little when I remembered he was a CFII and was capable of handling it. I think he did it for two reasons. First, because we were on a tight schedule, which is the wrong reason. And second, because he wanted me to understand the depth perception factor in determining just how close you are to clouds.

I must say, I am glad we did that and it made me a more confident pilot.

 

What I am about to say may be controversial (that said I promise not to bring up camguard or LOP operations).

 

I think on the one hand it is good to have a healthy respect of IMC, especially as a VFR pilot.  But I'm concerned that with videos like 178 seconds to live (see below and previously posted) we've created a situation where IMC=automatic death in the minds of too many pilots.  I fear that the panic caused by this belief during an inadvertent IMC encounter - "oh my god I could die" is not helpful in those situations.  I totally relate to your experience - I've been there once too.  "I could die and kill my family too" is a terrible feeling, but not one that is helpful during an emergency.  But also, if you know how to handle the situation, it need not be that dire.  Maybe if you had a more realistic orientation to IMC in the first place, you wouldn't have been so quick to dive through holes, etc. and would have realized that you were staring at an illusion.  Of course experience will also help.  Kudos for keeping it together though!

 

PANIC IS BAD.

 

The following might be helpful instead:

 

1)  Please remember, the plane doesn't really care if it is flying in vmc or imc.  (although cumulus clouds will be bumpier)  The plane will continue to fly just fine.  So don't do anything rash.  Don't dive through holes, scud run, etc.  Altitude remains your friend (with the exception of icing, and I sure hope your personal VFR limits kept you far from that bad a situation)  Just keep it level.

 

2)  If you have an autopilot and you are a VFR pilot, this is now your best friend in the inadvertent IMC situation.  Keep it on.  Put on your pitot heat turn off your strobes.  If there are VFR conditions right behind you, use the heading bug to use the autopilot to do a standard rate 180 degree turn.

 

3)  Confess.  This is why you should always use 'advisories' (commonly called flight following).  Declare an emergency - "washington center, N12345, inadvertent IMC, VFR only pilot, declaring an emergency".  Tell em you are level at x, on autopilot, and you need vectors to a VFR airfield.  Another reason to have plenty of fuel reserves in general.  I had to do this once long ago, and the controller was very helpful, and there was never any fallout.

 

Now, of course your autopilot could roll over and die, but unlikely.  If you don't have an autopilot, you still need to avoid panic, and not do anything rash.  But in either case, go up with an instructor and learn how to fly really well under the hood.  You don't need to have an instrument rating to learn this skill.  The instrument rating requires lots more than just controlling the plane - approaches, the atc system, communication, weather, etc.  All you want is to know how to have an instrument scan, and fly level, standard rate turns, ascents and descents.  This will keep you in good shape while ATC vectors you back to VMC.

 

Finally, of course, get an instrument rating at some point.  Mooneys are travelling machines, and few 1000 mile cross countries can be done totally VFR, certainly not round trip over a number of days.  The hood time to make you a safer VFR pilot is synonymous with starting your instrument training.  You don't have to finish the rating to be safer though.

 

yours,

Greg

 

178 seconds to live...  bleh.

[marks]

Robert, Loved the video, but with 4,000 hrs & 700 instrument approaches I never experienced anything like the video.  Once when I had just 70 hrs of experience, I flew my Tomahawk under a deck of clouds that thickend up and then fog entered the picture.  I was over Cape Cod Bay looking at the picture windows of seaside homes and I was so low I couldn't speak to Cape Approach.  I headed due west toward the land and gave the engine full power and tried not to push or pull the yoke.  I kept my eyes glues to the turn coordinator and kept the wings level and the ball centered.  Things worked so well that after a 1,500 ft climb I glanced at my other instruments and decided I could use the radio.  Cape Approach came on and I contnued to climb and confess.  He asked if I was OK and when I said yes, he told me to call him again when I got on top.  At 3,600 ft. I was on top with rolled out cotton batten clouds and the bright sun.  I called the controller and he told me to turn left 10 degrees and call him when I saw land.  Finally the clouds disappeared as I reached land and I called again.  The controller asked if I felt better and when I said "yeah" he told me to change frequencies and I never got a letter taking away my license or anything like that.  (It was 1985.)  That's when I decided to get my IR even though my plane wasn't equipped for it at that point.  I didn't plan to do it, but I did it.  You can too.

[robert7467]

That video is what could have happened. Now it’s time for me to fess up, the pilot who taught me how to fly through clouds wasn’t even instrument rated, or even a CFI, but is a pilot with over 30 years of experience. When I went up with this pilot, he was more of a safety pilot, and he would assist me in different flight maneuvers and so on. One thing he drilled down on me over and over again was unusual attitude recovery, and we punched through the clouds a few times just to see how it really was.

 

The first time I punched through a cloud, it was swirling, and it felt like I was going to hit a wall. I immediately started to panic, and he calmly told me “don’t look out the window, look at your instruments”. The second time I was more comfortable, then after we punched through it, he told me to close my eyes, and started doing the unusual attitude drill, then had me recover. With both conditions, it was partly cloudy, and we knew there was nothing on the other end of the cloud.

 

My instructor and I did the foggle thing with unusual attitude recovery, but it was NOTHING like actually punching through a cloud. The instructor did the right thing in a legal sense, but he just gave me the minimum to pass the FAA test, and not actually survive the real deal.

 

If it wasn’t for “my friend”, it very well could have ended like this video, because if it was my first time in an actual cloud, panic would have defiantly ensued. He did this because he knew my instructor wouldn’t, even though flying through clouds is something he doesn’t do. He had a sense of responsibility to teach me some of the gotcha’s.

 

I also think with my wife in the plane, I had to talk her through everything I was doing, to keep her calm which helped keep me calm and collected.

 

I think if the FAA wants to change any of the requirements of the PPL, they should take out the obsolete BS, and throw some additional training into the requirements as far as VFR into IMC, and make it a requirement for students to actually fly through a cloud.

 

Thinking back, I can hear the flight examiners crackle in his voice, with a facial expression of sadness when he said “you passed, your license to learn”. Now looking back, it’s like he knew that I met the legal requirements, but I was going to face many more challenges and  I was on my own.

 

Other than the basics, the things I learned to save my family’s life, didn’t come from an instructor, but a friend who cares a lot about my well-being. I have also learned a lot on this board, and by reading stories of fatal accidents.

 

It was never the fear of flying that got me, it was and still is the avoidable situation that I put myself in. Now that fear is starting to turn in to caution. Thank you guys for letting me spill my guts without this turning into a bashing post. I am grateful for being here to let others know, so they too can avoid making a stupid decision.

[robert7467]

And 201er, I heard parrots make great carbon monoxide detectors. They have been using birds for centuries for methane detection and carbon monoxide detection in coal mines.

[fantom]

 

VFR masters......

[gsengle]

 

VFR masters......

 

 

how do birds deal  with inadvertent imc; someone must have studied this!

[kmyfm20s]

I don't see any ballistic parachutes on those birds backs! Vintage models, cool:)

Robert would you have pulled the chute if you had it?

[robert7467]

Holy S! LMFAO They dont survive. Read this http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-01/five-hundred-more-dead-blackbirds-louisiana-further-puzzle-investigators

[robert7467]

As far as the chute goes, over the layer, no. Under the layer, if I didnt have a way back up, I would either pulled the chute, or landed in a field before I would continue forward into worsening conditions. Even though I was 3 miles to an airport, I knew I shouldnt push it, and I was looking for a place to set her down, but got lucky with a hole going back up. But actually I couldnt make the hole without pulling back into an accelerated stall, so I just looked at my insuruments and maintined proper climb pitch. I didn't know I was into a cloud until my wife told me on the ground, all she could see what white out the windows for 5 minutes. I think parachutes give pilots a false sense of security, and enables them to be more reckless in their decision making. A while back, a couple hangers down a guy in a Cirrus was known for scudd running, and always bragged about how he had a parachute. He is now a stastic from scudd running until the ceilings came so low, he ran into the ground.