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[YellowBirdFlyer]

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Edited May 11, 2017 by TJS

[Alan Fox]

F.S.D.O. time??????

[N201MKTurbo]

http://www.avweb.com/news/redundant/DumpingVacuumForElectric_207627-1.html

 

Here is a good discussion of the subject, it specifically talks about Mooneys.

[N601RX]

The mooney type certificate was ammended a few years to say that if no vacuum equipment remained, you could remove the pump and associated parts. You can look it up on the FAA website.

[Cruiser]

the big question will be getting your RCA 2600 with external battery backup approved as the backup to the Aspen PFD since this is specifically not part of the Aspen STC. Some people think it is not a big problem but it does seem that you will need a seperate STC for that part of the install.

[Swissmooney]

Hi there

I wanted to get rid of the vacuum system (including a backup vacuum pump) and went to glas (Garmin500) however I found that my speedbrakes are using vacuum....so I only got rid of the standby vacpump!

So check on your speed brakes if any...

Kind regards

Heinz

[M20F-1968]

I agree with Cruiser - If the Aspen is anything like the Garmin equipment, the type of back-up instruments are sepcified and you will need to stay with those or get approval to deviate from the STC. Another cpnsideration I made is that people who know gyros indicated to me that electric gyros do not right themselves in the event of an unusual attitude as quickly as vacuum gyros. For this reason I retained the vacuum gyro as my only vacuum instrument left (although I also have a vacuun retractable step). Thus I have the Garmin 600, a 2" Midcontinent gyro a,d a 3" vacuum. John Breda

[Marauder]

I just re-read Craig's write-up on the Aspen web site (see above link).  He did remove his vacuum system.

With the external battery version of the MFD he can remove his AI. And it sounds like with all vacuum requiring hardware removed he can remove the vacuum pump and associated tubing.

[Piloto]

If you are removing all vacuum backup I would also verify that you do not have a single point of failure in the electrical system. If all the gyros get powered down when the master is off you will have no back up if the master switch or relay is defective. Electrical backups should be on a separate bus to overcome single point of failure events.

 

José    

[Cruiser]

With the external battery version of the MFD he can remove his AI. And it sounds like with all vacuum requiring hardware removed he can remove the vacuum pump and associated tubing.

 

PLEASE re-read the Aspen instructions............! This is true for VFR operations ONLY!

 

NO! you CANNOT REMOVE the AI if you intend to fly IFR.

 

Aspen EFD1000 PFD Pilot's Guide REV E page 1-3

 

"With multiple EFD installations, an independent,

standby attitude indicator must be within the pilot’s

primary maximum field of view."

[Alan Fox]

If you have a rat , does that qualify for a backup electrical system , Also if you remove the Vac pump and install a backup alternator in its place , does that qualify??

[AndyFromCB]

I agree with Cruiser - If the Aspen is anything like the Garmin equipment, the type of back-up instruments are sepcified and you will need to stay with those or get approval to deviate from the STC. Another cpnsideration I made is that people who know gyros indicated to me that electric gyros do not right themselves in the event of an unusual attitude as quickly as vacuum gyros. For this reason I retained the vacuum gyro as my only vacuum instrument left (although I also have a vacuun retractable step). Thus I have the Garmin 600, a 2" Midcontinent gyro a,d a 3" vacuum. John Breda

John,

 

I've yet to be able to ever tumble RC Allens digital gyro, it simply will not tumble

[AndyFromCB]

I am entering the second week of upgrading my panel to three Aspens with external battery backup, replacing my Century IIB with an STEC 30, and replacing my vacuum driven attitude indicator with an RCA 2600 with external battery backup.  Since there will be no remaining vacuum driven instruments on my panel at the completion of this upgrade, the avionics shop wants to remove the vacuum system, including the vacuum pump.  My MSC, however, doesn’t think that this is allowed because my J left the factory with a vacuum system.  The MSC thinks that the vacuum system must remain even though it will not be serving any purpose.  The avionics shop believes that the vacuum system can be removed because the new panel makes it completely irrelevant.  Anyone have any thoughts on how to resolve this issue?  My preference is to give the avionics shop permission to remove the system, but I don’t want to do anything contrary to regulation.

 

There is a fellow on this board, he had his panel done by Santa Fe Avionics, the vacuum was removed and he just has the RC Allen 2600 LCD gyro as a back up.

[Marauder]

With the external battery version of the MFD he can remove his AI. And it sounds like with all vacuum requiring hardware removed he can remove the vacuum pump and associated tubing. PLEASE re-read the Aspen instructions............! This is true for VFR operations ONLY! NO! you CANNOT REMOVE the AI if you intend to fly IFR. Aspen EFD1000 PFD Pilot's Guide REV E page 1-3 "With multiple EFD installations, an independent, standby attitude indicator must be within the pilot’s primary maximum field of view."

Hi Cruiser. My bad. For some reason I got AI in my head, not ASI. With the MFD with external battery you can remove the ASI and the altimeter. The AI needs to stay (for now anyways). Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Cruiser]

Hi Cruiser. My bad. For some reason I got AI in my head, not ASI. With the MFD with external battery you can remove the ASI and the altimeter. The AI needs to stay (for now anyways). Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

As we all know, any person planning upgrades should discuss the changes in detail with their installer. Pre-planning is a critical part of the process and gathering ideas from other pilots is a great way to make improvements in your own plane. HOWEVER, we have heard of different FSDO interpretations to the regulations and not all district approvals are created the same. Your local installer should know what is required and they should share that information with you BEFORE they start the upgrades.

These jobs are very expensive and I just don't want someone proceeding with changes that MAY end up costing them much, much more than planned.

 

EVERYONE....... please review the complete upgrade including all the newly installed equipment with a competent and knowledgeable installer that is willing to put in writing his approval/sign-off of the planned changes BEFORE the first screw is removed from your plane.

 

An example: There have been several threads about buying used S-TEC autopilots. While you can BUY the used equipment from anyone, putting it in your plane will require a trip to the S-TEC factory for inspection/calibration, and purchase of an install kit. Then you also have to buy the STC from S-TEC. Something they are very proud of....$$$$.....

A very tidy sum in addition to the price of the hardware.

[RobertoTohme]

My Eagle is all electric now and all vacuum, both main and standby, were removed at the factory's service center.  If you don't have vacuum powered equipment, they can be taken out, period.  Hopefully Brian Kendrick can chime in this thread; he was the one running the factory's service center back in 2009 when my Eagle got it removed.

[bd32322]

The Aspen installation instructions mention that there must be an independent source of AI information. Loosely speaking, an external battery backup for a PFD backup qualifies and the vacuum system can be removed. However, there are more requirements as to how long the battery should be able to power the instruments, removing single points of failure etc. I am not knowledgable about those details but there is certainly more than meets the eye.

[Mike A]

This month's AOPA Pilot magazine has an article about legally removing the vacuum system on a 201. Seems fairly complex.

[bd32322]

This month's AOPA Pilot magazine has an article about legally removing the vacuum system on a 201. Seems fairly complex to do it legally.

He wanted the second alternator route to vacuum system removal and hence incurred the time and expense. There are other ways to do it, like having external battery backups which the aspens provide as an option I think. His was a g500 - pretty but not very redundant compared to aspen pfd and mfd with failover

[gsxrpilot]

The removal of the load on the engine from the vacuum pump is probably more than offset by the added load of the second alternator.

[gsxrpilot]

I believe here in the US, the only way to get the removal of the vacuum system removed is if a second alternator is installed.  There's an article floating around somewhere about the first J that got approval to do this.

[Guest]

The back up battery pack used with a dual Aspen is fairly expensive, certainly more expensive than a vacuum pump.

Clarence

[kevinw]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I believe here in the US, the only way to get the removal of the vacuum system removed is if a second alternator is installed.  There's an article floating around somewhere about the first J that got approval to do this.

My vacuum system has been removed and I have no second alternator. Aspen PFD with Sandia 340 as backup. I think that article you're referring to was in AOPA Pilot a couple years ago and I believe he added a second alternator.

[Marauder]

7 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

yep I suppose that's true.  but if one didn't put one in, what hp would you gain.  more of an intellectual discussion than something I am planning to do.  I would almost certainly put in a second alternator.

In Mooney terms, you would gain 100 knots. I am about to embark on the vacuum system removal. I am installing the L-3 ESI-500 as a backup to my Aspens that have their power backup. 

I would love to see how a second alternator would be hooked up in a J.

[Guest]

A B & C 410 alternator bolts to the old vacuum pump pad.

http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/eppages/sd20_alternator.php?clickkey=14047

Clarence