Looking for a J, buyer's checklist

[IndyTim]

Happy Thanksgiving, all.

I am currently in the market for a low engine time J to serve mostly as my personal commuter. If anyone has a lead on a nice plane with a good xc setup, I'd appreciate your forwarding the information to me. I'm regularly on Controller, Trade-a-plane, and Barnstomers, as well as the primary Mooney service center websites, looking for the right plane.

I'm also wondering if anyone has a pre-buy checklist that they've used in making their purchase.

I hope to soon be a more fully qualified member of the Mooney community!

[carusoam]

Checklist holder...

I used Maxwell. He holds a nice checklist. Defined all issues wether they we're AW or not....

No surprises even after three years.

-a-

[OR75]

simple checklist ...

- talk to your financial advisor (and significant other if applicable) and decide how much you want to spend (upfront and recurring)

- use the help of someone you trust and who knows aircrafts (a pilot / owner / operator actively involved in maintenance or a MSC at the high end of the spectra)

[SheryLoewen]

LASAR has a prebuy check list on the website and a low time 78' 201 offered

[PTK]

In my opinion it's best to buy an airplane maintained and annualed by a reputable MSC. Also look at the logs and study them well. Look for how frequently it flew and how well the owner maintained it.

[Jerry 5TJ]

You might consider looking for a partner to buy the plane with, especially if you have never owned an airplane before.

[carusoam]

Sherry, your the best!

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

IndyTim, I have a pre-buy checklist that I used when I bought my J. I downloaded it from the MAPA website as I recall, and it was in the "public" section so not only for members. I have it as a PDF which I will mail to you if you can't find it yourself. Just send me a PM here on the forum with your email address. I generally look here about once a day.

Jeff

Never mind the PM, I found it on the MAPA website, so here it is: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J_Inspection.htm

[aaronk25]

Low time is good, but only if the plane has been run at least every 2 weeks and preferably weekly. Also don't shy away from a damage history plane if a reputable shop did the repairs. In many cases the planes come out better than one that didn't have any damage such as a gear up.

Example my plane had a gear up a year ago and it's standard practice to change the main bearings inspect and install new seals. I got a new cam also at that time and compressions are up to 74-76, which I think is due to lean of peak operation which promotes clean rings and reduces deposits. I wouldn't trade the engine I have now for a 500 hour engine.

Remember low engine time may determine value at the surface but a frequently run engine at the hands of a operator that knows how to take care of the power plant, example no jamming throttles forward, lean on ground, lean of peak and no hotter than 380 chts, cuts oil filters, frequant oil analysis, goes a long way......engine overhauls based on tach time is the out dated method of determining when to overhaul......just some thoughts.

[IndyTim]

Thanks all - I appreciate the input. I'll be using the plane an average of 5-8 hours per week, so I don't think it's the right setup for a partner.

I do plan to have a pre-buy inspection done.

Since I'm looking for 1978-1982 model year Js, are there any things in particular to watch for?

[aaronk25]

Why are you limiting the years from 78-82??? This doesn't make sense to me???

[IndyTim]

Why are you limiting the years from 78-82??? This doesn't make sense to me???

I would buy newer if it was in budget. For roughly $80k post-buy, Js in good condition (exterior/interior) with at least 1000 hours left on TBO and a decent albeit non-WAAS panel turn out to be in the 78-82 MY range, generally.

Just trying to bring some focus to the thread but if there is something I'm missing please share your thoughts.

[IndyTim]

Remember low engine time may determine value at the surface but a frequently run engine at the hands of a operator that knows how to take care of the power plant, example no jamming throttles forward, lean on ground, lean of peak and no hotter than 380 chts, cuts oil filters, frequant oil analysis, goes a long way......engine overhauls based on tach time is the out dated method of determining when to overhaul......just some thoughts.

Yes but the problem is in knowing for certain whether the plane has indeed been flown this way. I would trust a recent MSC overhaul long before I'd trust a seller saying he took good care of the engine.

[Bennett]

Personally, I would not buy any Mooney until it was checked out by one of the "über" MSCs like LASAR or Maxwell or Dugousb , and a few others. I believe LASAR has a buyer's checklist available, and you might want to contact them I know lots of folks on this forum don't like Coy Jacobs at Mooney Mart, but he really knows Mooneys and I believe he also has (sells) a Mooney buyer's check list.

[aaronk25]

I've seen some good buys on 77j with 430 non-was. I've been thinking a out selling but haven't decided yet. Itching for a 252. I'm a 77 with a new garmin 650 wass, gpss steer, rebuilt autopilot with altitude hold, new windows and tank seal last year. Put 300 hours on in last year! Lot of long distance flying, that's why I'm thinking 252 but not sure yet. 975 useful load! If your really interested we could talk but for the most part I'm really enjoying all the recent upgrades the problem is that there is a ovation and a 252 on our field here at Rochester mn and every time I go for a ride with these guys I start thinking about buying one!

[fantom]

While I have lots of respect for Bennett, please be extremely careful if you deal With the guy he mentioned, whom I don't believe he's worked with for some time.

Living in Florida and being part of the Mooney community for two decades, I've heard literally hundreds of horror stories, and only four positive ones about the guy.

It isn't a question of liking the guy, it's a matter of integrity and reputation.

Good luck and caveat emptor!.

[laytonl]

Talk with Jimmy Garrison at All American Aircraft. I just bought from him and it was a good experience.

(Full disclosure: he is selling my '78 M20J for me.)

Lee

[OR75]

buying a plane is like buying a home. you're always smarter when you buy your second one

[aaronk25]

0R75, Right on!

[larryb]

I bought my J this spring. I also found looking for a plane is like looking for a house: It's almost impossible to find the perfect match. I was looking for a clean airframe, good p&i, good engine, and the panel I wanted. Oh, and a good price too... Couldn't find it. I finally decided to look for a plane that made a good starting point. So I dropped the panel requirement, and found a plane that met all the rest of my requirements but had an original King panel. 2.5 weeks in the shop, and I got the full Garmin panel that I wanted.

For me, this made sense. The avionics are where all the advancement is. So the panel is the least likely to have what I was looking for.

I think a clean corosion free airframe is the most important thing to look for. An engine is pretty much a crap-shoot. Even an engine that looks great on paper can have a big problem right after you buy.

Larry

[jetdriven]

Good comments here. Very important is the corrosion-free part (tubing and wing spars) and it needs to be frequently flown. our plane had only flown 75 hours 2 years before we bought it, and 35 hours the year before, with 7 of that in one XC to the place we bought it. I have a feeling that resulted in our cam and lifters going bad 250 hours after we bought it.

Don't overlook a 1977, although they are a little different than 1978 and later models because of some hold-over equipment from the F being used. The MLG actuator is a Dukes (No back spring!), the emergency gear extension is a crank like the F, the fuel sellector is betwen your knees (awful place). There is no annunciator panel, and the tube structure behind the panel limits radio options in the top 4" of the center radio stack. There are very few of the KFC-200 AP installations in the 1977 and that is a great autopilot. They fly the same and have a ~1000 LB useful load.

[aaronk25]

Byron what do you mean back spring. I've been in a 82j in addition to my 77 of course and I know the emergency gear extension is on the floor but can't figure out what your referring to?

[OR75]

i believe what Byron is refering to is the fact that the '77 Js have Dukes actuators with a 40:1 ratio and therefore are less prone to wear and failure. ??? not sure.

The no-back spring has to do with the manual gear extension ? the lever is actually on the left side panel , not on the floor.

i personaly think that the 77 vintage is a great one with the exception on the quadrant type control as the quadrant comes in the way when coming in and out of the pilot seat.

[KSMooniac]

i believe what Byron is refering to is the fact that the '77 Js have Dukes actuators with a 40:1 ratio and therefore are less prone to wear and failure. ??? not sure.

The no-back spring has to do with the manual gear extension ? the lever is actually on the left side panel , not on the floor.

i personaly think that the 77 vintage is a great one with the exception on the quadrant type control as the quadrant comes in the way when coming in and out of the pilot seat.

I was looking for updated/modified E/F Mooneys when I stretched and got my '77 J. J's weren't even on my radar due to budget desires, but this one was a gem, and local to me with a great history so I stretched to get it. Like Byron, I agree that it has some real strong suits like that gear actuator and high useful loads, generally speaking. Things I really don't like include the pop-up fresh air scoop (noisy, draggy, and ineffective) and especially the throttle quadrant. The quadrant is the enemy of precision and takes up a lot of volume right where knees go. I plan to fix both of these characteristics using parts from my salvage J that I just purchased. I've enjoyed the plane for almost 6 years already, and I wouldn't overlook a really nice '77 if I needed to buy again.

I agree with all of the advice listed so far and just to add my priorities they would be:

1. Clean, straight, corrosion-free airframe

2. Most of the avionics I ultimately desire

3. Autopilot...hopefully perfectly functional!

4. Recent use and maintenance history (ie over the last 3-5 years)

5. "big" ticket maintenance items...like fuel tank status, nose gear condition, landing gear biscuits, etc.

6. Cosmetics

7. Engine time

19. Damage history

20. Airframe time

I put 19 and 20 way down the list because Mooneys are hell-for-stout and DON'T have a structural fatigue problem, so long as there isn't corrosion. Damage history is a case-by-case basis for me, but generally a gear-up or similar damage shouldn't be a show-stopper IF repaired correctly. There are well-maintained and repaired Mooneys flying all over that are in better condition than low-time hangar queens, so don't necessarily rule them out.

Knowing what I know now, I think I would prefer to buy a run-out engine (or at least not value a plane assuming that any given engine will last 2000 hours) due to seemingly common "early" overhauls after cams shell out. I think Lycoming fell victim to rampant corporate cost-cutting and produced or out-sourced inferior quality parts in the last 10-15 years, and any engine overhauled in that time frame with new parts from Lycoming would be suspicious in my mind. I also think I would rather have a plane with 1500 SMOH and continuous use since overhaul vs. a 200-400 SMOH engine that has not flown regularly. I'm sure many first-time owners would prefer a low time engine, but I would caution them not to assume that means a turn-key plane that will run a long time! It might be a good idea to consider (or be prepared for) your own overhaul/replacement options soon after getting any plane.

Since nobody has mentioned it yet, George Perry had a nice post years ago about Mooney shopping...it would be worth searching that one up. Good luck with the hunt!

[aaronk25]

Ya know the funny thing about the throttle quadrant is that I slightly prefer it over the knobs because I descend lean of peak and land that way too. If a go around is necessary just push everything forward. I think if I had the knobs I might run full rich because its harder to get the mixture pushed in quickly. It's not a big deal. But that's why I like it.