Looking for an M20S vs Ovation...

[Skydac]

I am glad to be on this forum. I have been looking for an Eagle for the last 4 months. I have a question, for around $200.000 you can get a M20S or an Ovation 1 or 2 depending of avionics etc. Its any advantage in maintenance cost /performance for having an eagle vs an Ovation? normally aspirated vs injection or the 280/310 screaming eagle conversion? after reading almost every web side and post its difficult to get conclusions...any advise?  Thanks much,  Mike.

[MooneyMitch]

Per articles I've read, and opinions shared from Maxwell Aviation and Top Gun, they seem to agree that there is a significant positive performance increase with converting the S models to the 310 HP rating.  

 

[Mcstealth]

Not that I would kick either one out of bed, but the 310hp Ovation is a heck of a N/A traveling machine. You get the gross weight increase with the 310 STC if I remember correctly. If you don't run it at 2700 rpm, you get fuel burns equivilant of the Eagle, but you can carry more. It is yummy. I think the O3 was marketed and the fastest N/A GA four seater.

[KSMooniac]

The M20S came with 244 hp derated from the 280 hp of the Ovation.  It was the "low-cost" option in the Mooney line-up to replace the 200 hp M20J/201 that was discontinued the year before the Eagle was released.  It was pretty much a flop in the market, but the upside is that you can convert it Ovation power via STC and get equivalent performance for less money, theoretically.

If you're looking in the 200k range for either of these, then that rules out the G1000 Ovations.  IMO, an Eagle with the Screamin' Eagle conversion would be MORE attractive than an Ovation of the same era because you'll get a less-loaded panel.  At first glance that sounds bad, but as an owner you'll get fewer and simpler avionics to maintain, and that means less operational cost and more useful load.  It also makes a more flexible canvas if/when you wish to upgrade to modern avionics like an Aspen or G500, newer GPS/Comms, etc.  You'll get a "lesser" autopilot vs. the Ovation, but it won't have the expensive gyros to overhaul or replace, so decide if the autopilot features are an important item on your priority list.

At the end of the day, though, either plane is absolutely great!  You can't go wrong with either choice.  If you want a newer G1000 bird, the former owner of my plane is selling his 2008 GX and it is a peach.  

[KSMooniac]

One clarification.... both the M20S and the M20R are normally-aspirated, fuel-injected TCM IO-550 engines.  Neither have a turbo or a carb.  

[Piloto]

Mike 

One potential significant difference is that the STC for long range tanks does not include the M20S model. Unlike the M20R Ovation were you can have up to 130 gallons with the long range tanks you can only have 75 gallons on the M20S. This may not become significant unless you go with the 310HP conversion were the engine consumes more fuel. 240HP vs 280 is significant during climb and ceiling. Given the choice I would definitely go with the Ovation.

José

 

 

[carusoam]

Screaming eagle with autopilot can be upgraded with a minimal paint addition and new IFD540 (or something like that).

Then check the price against an Ovation...

Wouldn't want to keep the original derated HP and small tanks...

My two cents.

-a-

[John Pleisse]

An early mellinium vintage O2 would hit your budget perfect. HP, dual G430's, KFC225 and Moritz guages. The perfect ride. The right prop helps.

[John Pleisse]

dp.

[Cris]

Quote: KSMooniac

The M20S came with 244 hp derated from the 280 hp of the Ovation. It was the "low-cost" option in the Mooney line-up to replace the 200 hp M20J/201 that was discontinued the year before the Eagle was released. It was pretty much a flop in the market, but the upside is that you can convert it Ovation power via STC and get equivalent performance for less money, theoretically.

If you're looking in the 200k range for either of these, then that rules out the G1000 Ovations. IMO, an Eagle with the Screamin' Eagle conversion would be MORE attractive than an Ovation of the same era because you'll get a less-loaded panel. At first glance that sounds bad, but as an owner you'll get fewer and simpler avionics to maintain, and that means less operational cost and more useful load. It also makes a more flexible canvas if/when you wish to upgrade to modern avionics like an Aspen or G500, newer GPS/Comms, etc. You'll get a "lesser" autopilot vs. the Ovation, but it won't have the expensive gyros to overhaul or replace.

These points mirror my decision to purchase a Screamin' Eagle and I'll add these comments. The STC from Midwest Mooney comes in two flavors- the early 280 HP upgrade and the latter 310 HP upgrade. You can change the 280 Hp to the 310 HP but there is a cost and requires a new prop gov, tach and paperwork. In my case it was 5K but well worth it. In addition my useful load increased to 1122 lbs in part because there is less equipment and in part due to the gross weight increase to 3368lbs with the STC same as the Ovation. The Screamin Eagle is also faster than the Ovation at the same MP/RPM since it is lighter. I typically flight plan at 190 kts. The S-tec 30 autopilot is a perfectly adequate autopilot and if coupled with a Garmin 430/530 or GTN 650/750 together with GPSS will pretty much operate as a full featured FMS. However many of the Eagles have been upgraded to the Stec 55X. I am hopeful that the DFC 90 will make an appearance on our airframes and I would probably go in that direction for its safety features like straight and level button which makes my passengers happy. The Ovations with the KFC225 autopilots and their servos can be real expensive to maintain. For me I like simple and cost effective. The Screamin' Eagle fits the bill perfectly. My total maintenance cost for last year was $1800 including the owner assisted annual. And I do not find that I want to learn all new systems like the g1000. I simply do not fly that much. More to the point is safety first. I want to stay current with what I know. Simple and cost effective

[Cris]

Quote: Duplicate

[Cris]

Quote: Piloto

Mike

One potential significant difference is that the STC for long range tanks does not include the M20S model. Unlike the M20R Ovation were you can have up to 130 gallons with the long range tanks you can only have 75 gallons on the M20S. This may not become significant unless you go with the 310HP conversion were the engine consumes more fuel. 240HP vs 280 is significant during climb and ceiling. Given the choice I would definitely go with the Ovation.

José

Jose'/Mike The Midwest Stc does in fact upgrade the Eagle's 75 gals to the Ovations 89 gals of useful fuel. In addition Midwest is in the process of changing the STC to allow for the full tank capacity of 100 gals on the latter Ovations. I often fly NJ to Miss or Fla non stop with never a concern for fuel due to the Eagle's speed/range.

[co2bruce]

You can put more than 75 gallons in the S. I rarely fly with a full load and often carry more fuel than 75 gallons (you can fit 90 gasl) . That said, how long can you go before a bathroom break????? 4 - 4.5 hours is my limit but I'm old. I agree if you can afford an Ovation and it has the desired avionics that woudl be my choice. I own an S it works well for my mission

[skyking1]

You might get a list of owners who have had the conversion to the screaming eagle from Midwest . I have the 310 conversion and have added an aspen with flight director. It already had a 530waas and stec55 autopilot. The eagle is great and I can recommend it highly!

[Piloto]

Cris 

You can actually put 100 gallons (at the skin top) in the Ovation and the Eagle if you fill it slowly to avoid flooding the filler conduit. The M20M, M20R, M20S and M20TN all have the same fuel tank volumetric capacity. What limits the fuel amount is the depth of the filler conduit which floods right away as soon you put 38 gallons in the M20S. Some have drilled holes on the conduit to expedite filling to 100 gallons. 130 gallons with the long range tanks makes more sense on the turbo models which unlike the Ovation and the Eagle has considerable higher fuel consumption at the flight levels.

José

 

[carqwik]

The fuel flows drop the higher you go with a normally aspirated engine (like the Eagle and Ovation).  In the turbo models, the fuel flows remain fairly constant for a given power setting regardless of altitude (due to the ability to achieve a constant MP).  That said, long range tanks do benefit the turbo Mooneys...for me, the standard tanks in the Bravo are just fine as my body needs a break after 3.5 hours of piston flying!

[co2bruce]

They can be ordered from the factory though a Mooney Service Center. I just got a set 2 months ago.

[Skydac]

Thanks very much everybody. Great points for both. The Eagle is my first choice however not a lot of screaming eagles in the market right now...just found one in Colorado with the 280 conversion.  A lot of Os and O2s in the market with good avionics.  I agree with Cris, I dont need complex avionics and looks like maintenance cost is very symilar for eagle and ovations except for the autopilots and gyros...

MSD

Omaha, NE

 

 

[bd32322]

is it possible to do the screaming eagle conversion now? how much does it cost?

[carusoam]

BD....,

Try this contact.

http://midwestmooney.com/mods.html

For user type questions....

Cris (here) is a screaming eagle fan, unfortunately he's traveling outside the normal distance today...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Can it be upgraded to M20TN???  Adding turbos, engine parts and prop?

 

Wishfull thinking on my part....

-a-

 

[Flymu2]

Quote: bd32322

is it possible to do the screaming eagle conversion now? how much does it cost?

[KSMooniac]

Quote: carusoam

Can it be upgraded to M20TN???  Adding turbos, engine parts and prop?

 

Wishfull thinking on my part....

-a-

 

[jhbehrens]

The Screamin Eagle is also faster than the Ovation at the same MP/RPM since it is lighter. I typically flight plan at 190 kts.

Hi Chris

Like you I fly a Screamin' Eagle - a '99 M20S I upgraded with the 310HP STC a few ywars ago. I find its performance and useful load unbeatable.

I noticed your comment that you flightplan at 190kts. I've never seen my Eagle fly that fast but my typical enroute flight profile is 10,000 ft, 2500RPM, WOT and 50F lean of peak. I see about 175 kts TAS at these settings and burn 12gph. There is quite a difference between that and 190kts - what are your altitudes and settings when you reach that?

Jorgen

[Cris]

Jorgen- typically I'm flying in the 8-11k range at altitudes at 2550 rpm and around 13-14 gph. and vary between ROP and 10-20 lean of peak on the leanest cyl. depending on winds and temps. I've found that the factory 3 probe egt will show 40-50 lop when my GEM 610 shows less. The descriptive of the chart for the M20R that we are to use is attached. It shows 190 knots at 2500 rpm. Thus it would stand to reason that 2550 would give more speed even though this chart is ROP and 7500'. In addition since I fly alone 90% of the time I am well below the 3368 lbs which also increases speed. As you know the temp will also effect the TAS and I fly more in the cooler times of the year so that also helps. However I might suggest you check your rigging. It can make a huge differance. There should not be that much differance in our performances when compared to book. Currently I have 425 hrs TT on th A/C and had the rigging checked at time of purchase by an MSC. it was pretty much dead on although one gear door was tweaked. In the past I have picked up 6 knots or more with Mooney's that were out of rig. Just something to consider.

MOONEY M20R - OVATION 2 GX SECTION V PERFORMANCE

5 - - 26 AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUAL ORIGINAL ISSUE - - 12-11-2007

M20R OVATION 2 GX - SPEED POWER VS ALTITUDE

EXAMPLE: PRESS ALT 7,500 FT OAT 10 C POWER 75% AIRSPEED 190 KTAS

SPEED, POWER VS. ALTITUDE GEAR UP , FLAPS UP , 3368 LBS