Mooney spins and stalls

[SilentT]

Where would one get quality spin and stall experience in their Mooney with capable cfi support to reduce chances of loss. 

[Hank]

Hmmm . . . Mooney spin training with capable CFI support? I dunno . . . .

[201er]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Hmmm . . . Mooney spin training with capable CFI support? I dunno . . . .

Well it’s anti-spin training much how stall training is more about recognizing and avoiding a stall rather than how to cause it. 
 

Make sure you have a lot of altitude to recover from a stall turned inadvertent spin!

[Jerry 5TJ]

36 minutes ago, SilentT said:

Where would one get quality spin and stall experience in their Mooney with capable cfi support to reduce chances of loss. 

The VFR flight training at MAPASF PPP events includes slow flight, stall training and spin-avoidance techniques.   

[takair]

1 hour ago, SilentT said:

Where would one get quality spin and stall experience in their Mooney with capable cfi support to reduce chances of loss. 

Where are you located and what model?  As others suggested, I don’t think anybody would do intentional spin training in a Mooney, but preventative training is available and beneficial,  lots of stalls and slow flight.  There are numerous CFIs on this site and listed in Mooney Flier.  True spin training is often available at schools that offer upset training and those who do CFI spin training.  You can often search for a school via Google, some show up on Barnstormers.  We could probably offer more options with a location.

[Jackk]

I wouldn’t have a issue doing falling leaf stalls in a Mooney, did them in turboprops with higher wing loading before 

[cliffy]

 I had a  conversation with Bill Wheat (RIP) THE GURU of Mooney flight testing while in Kerrville many years ago.

We touched on spins in Mooneys in that conversation.

He stated that he once (while  doing spin testing for Mooney) had one stay locked in the spin for 5 (FIVE) full rotations

He said he almost didn't get out of it and NEVER wanted to do it again. So, DON'T INTENTIONALLY SPIN MOONEYS !!

Enough said!

 

[SilentT]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Well it’s anti-spin training much how stall training is more about recognizing and avoiding a stall rather than how to cause it. 
 

Make sure you have a lot of altitude to recover from a stall turned inadvertent spin!

This was precisely what I was inferring. 

[SilentT]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Hmmm . . . Mooney spin training with capable CFI support? I dunno . . . .

 

Fundamentally I should have said spin avoidance training. 

During ppl training in a 152 I incipient spin that I recovered from and my cfi was like good job that's what happens when you stall uncoordinated. Don't do that lo

During my ppl check ride dpe had me do a climbing, turning power on stall. Of which I had never done before but read about. I passed but it did scare the shit out of me.

Now I have a Mooney I never want to see an unexpected stall, but I've only ever done one with CFI during transition training it was controlled, coordinated and fine. But what if it's not. I'd like someone to guide recovery of a Mooney that stalls uncoordinated. Which was the crux of my question, but I'd rather not do it alone with limited skills. 

 

Location, Midwest.: indiana Illinois area

[N201MKTurbo]

In my recent Flight Review, the CFI asked for a power on stall. At full power clean, it wouldn’t stall. I had the yoke all the way back and it was just hanging in the air. The CFI said that was good enough, I said I wanted a stall. So I released back pressure and then jerked the yoke back. That got er done. The nose dropped through the horizon and I recovered.

[N201MKTurbo]

The guy who bought my old Cessna said he is going to spin it today. With a CFI. (The blind leading the blind) I hope that 70 year old airframe holds together.

[C.J.]

@SilentT

I'm trying to locate a PDF regarding Mooney spin characteristics written by Mooney test pilot Bob Kromer. Thought it might be in MS downloads, but it isn't. Bottom line is there are very good reasons that intentional spins are prohibited in Mooneys. From what I remember it is imperative to apply anti-spin control inputs immediately and agressively. I'll post the file if I ever find it.

While a student at ERAU in 1977 we all routinely and regularly practiced the 3 basic stalls in the M20C, both dual and solo. They are certainly nothing to be fearful of, but a certain amount of respect is warranted as with any aircraft. There was one occasion where I spoke to a student, who, as an observer from the back seat on a dual flight, had the flight instructor fail to intevene early and an inadvertent spin was entered. The altitude loss was significant, and he felt they'd never recover. It had happened earlier in the week and this guy was still visibly shaken just recounting the experience.

If you want to become skilled at spin recorvery, find a reputable company that teaches aerobatics in a certified aircraft. I did exactly this in 1994 in a Pitts S2A with a former IAC National Silver Medalist. This comprised every possible botched stall entry and covered both upright and inverted spins. Trust me it will be the best money you'll ever spend.

 

[TheAv8r]

15 minutes ago, SilentT said:

Now I have a Mooney I never want to see an unexpected stall, but I've only ever done one with CFI during transition training it was controlled, coordinated and fine. But what if it's not. I'd like someone to guide recovery of a Mooney that stalls uncoordinated. Which was the crux of my question, but I'd rather not do it alone with limited skills. 

The problem here is an uncoordinated stall runs a high risk of entering a spin. As others have said, you do not want to spin a Mooney. The recovery procedure is the exact same, keep ailerons neutral, reduce the Angle of Attack by lowering the nose, if a wing drops, use rudder to bring it back up and smoothly apply full power to minimize altitude loss (then clean the airplane's configuration up once positive rate of climb is achieved). Spin prevention starts by staying coordinated - and that's what we teach in airplanes not approved for spins. If you're always coordinated, you won't spin. There are lots of scenarios we could approach as "but what if it doesn't do that," but it's not always safe to train in the actual scenario which is why we train prevention techniques and focus on that. If you want to get better at spin recovery, go up with a CFI in another airplane that is approved for spins and do spin work, but the Mooney isn't the airplane for that. 

For example, lets say you ask "what if I didn't do my flight control check and the elevators were binding after takeoff, I'd like to train for that scenario." It's certainly not safe to takeoff with the elevators unable to move or some kind of control lock in place to train on how to fly it. What could you do then? Prevention - focus on checklist usage, flows to reinforce checking the flight controls, preflight verification, maybe have your CFI walk you through a trim-only landing. That gives you tools at your disposal to never get into that situation. Not every situation is recoverable, so the best we can do is avoid them in the first place.

Edited January 9 by TheAv8r

[Thedude]

My 79 J is out of rig requiring left rudder in cruise and very very little right rudder in takeoff climb. Obviously I want to fix this, but it's almost like it helps keep the plane coordinated for power on stalls...

[Jackk]

38 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The guy who bought my old Cessna said he is going to spin it today. With a CFI. (The blind leading the blind) I hope that 70 year old airframe holds together.

 A CFI is required to have spin training.  So not really blind, just depends on if CFI stayed proficient in spins 

 

 Same as it depends if your friend properly maintains his airplane.

 

 A proper basic spin is not a violent maneuver on the airframe. Not really asking much more than a stall 

[midlifeflyer]

49 minutes ago, SilentT said:

Fundamentally I should have said spin avoidance training. 

During ppl training in a 152 I incipient spin that I recovered from and my cfi was like good job that's what happens when you stall uncoordinated. Don't do that lo

During my ppl check ride dpe had me do a climbing, turning power on stall. Of which I had never done before but read about. I passed but it did scare the shit out of me.

Now I have a Mooney I never want to see an unexpected stall, but I've only ever done one with CFI during transition training it was controlled, coordinated and fine. But what if it's not. I'd like someone to guide recovery of a Mooney that stalls uncoordinated. Which was the crux of my question, but I'd rather not do it alone with limited skills. 

 

Location, Midwest.: indiana Illinois area

Based on that post, you really do need to get some training. I would expect any decent Mooney CFI to be able to do it with you.  Are you still in touch with your transition CFI? Were you comfortable with him or her? 

To your last point, you don't want to stall uncoordinated. That's the whole idea of preventive training. At most, I'd be looking at falling leaf stalls rather than an intentionally uncoordinated stall in an aircraft not certified for spins. OTOH, if what you really want is spin recovery training to build confidence, that doesn't have to be in a Mooney. The airframes are different, but the principles are the same. 

[Yetti]

3 hours ago, SilentT said:

Where would one get quality spin and stall experience in their Mooney with capable cfi support to reduce chances of loss. 

If you are in the Houston area I know some people who will operate with the Limitations of the Mooney.   They are Mooney Safety trainers. 

Better than that I would suggest going up high and be in take off configuration.   Have the CFI cut the throttle.  Practice till you are pushing down on the yoke from muscle memory.

The other item to pay attention to is the manual.   The manual for the F says "No turns in the pattern under 90mph without flaps"   Don't violate this rule ever. 

The other thing I have noticed from the great pilots I fly with they feel and correct an uncoordinated flight about a half second before I do.  Learning to feel uncoordinated flight will take many hours. 

Other than that the best advice I got was "Be airline smooth"

[EricJ]

Yeah, don't spin the Mooney.    Spin characteristics are not as friendly as some utility-category training airplanes, like C150s or C172s. 

I would suggest getting spin training in a C150 or C172, though.   C150s are fun to spin, although it takes forever to climb back up to altitude to do it again.   Some of the schools here were spinning their C172s fairly regularly and I'd hear them making calls in the practice areas, "Look out below!"

Anybody who suggests a falling leaf in a Mooney has probably never flown a Mooney.   Bad idea.   Don't do that.

[cliffy]

Just as a side note-

My Commercial Test check ride consisted of 4 spins and two turns about points in my Cessna 140!

Nothing else

And it was given by a retired head of (in those days) the local GADO.

I was doing spins in 150s long before my PPL.

Find an aerobatic 150 and go play with it with an instructor. You'll enjoy it and take the mystery  out of spins. 

[SilentT]

54 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Based on that post, you really do need to get some training. I would expect any decent Mooney CFI to be able to do it with you.  Are you still in touch with your transition CFI? Were you comfortable with him or her? 

To your last point, you don't want to stall uncoordinated. That's the whole idea of preventive training. At most, I'd be looking at falling leaf stalls rather than an intentionally uncoordinated stall in an aircraft not certified for spins. OTOH, if what you really want is spin recovery training to build confidence, that doesn't have to be in a Mooney. The airframes are different, but the principles are the same. 

OH yeah he was great, maybe we did a few stalls but like in said it was all well planned and coordinated. 

All of this comes from a place of the manual that says no spins. After almost spinning the 152 in training I just don't have the confidence it can't / won't happen again. I know all the book answers but I've also never had one happen on takeoff or landing when it really matters and you haven't mentally processed what your about to do before it happens. Obviously you aren't going to practice those, but I did probably 100 stalls in that 152 power on and off, and got snapped by a 45deg climbing stall request from the dpe that shook me as I've really not got the skills I probably should have if I'm going to haul my fam around eventually. 

Or maybe just being paranoid. I'd really prefer the stall training in my aircraft and perhaps spins in another. 

 

[EricJ]

13 minutes ago, SilentT said:

Or maybe just being paranoid. I'd really prefer the stall training in my aircraft and perhaps spins in another. 

Yup.   You need to know what the Mooney feels like at those airspeeds and how it stalls.    I'd also highly encourage doing some spins in the 152 with an experienced instructor.   I always found them very fun and would go do them just to have some fun with it.    

[midlifeflyer]

27 minutes ago, SilentT said:

Or maybe just being paranoid. I'd really prefer the stall training in my aircraft and perhaps spins in another. 

Not paranoid at all. That's exactly what I would suggest. 

If you can get someone with a Citabria or something similar, you might even find spins fun. 

[PT20J]

The Mooney is as spin resistant as any other normal category airplane. During certification, it had to meet CAR 3 spin requirement of recovering from a one turn spin in one and a half additional turns. It generally takes two turns for a spin to become fully developed. So, if you initiate a prompt recovery control application, it will recover.

This assumes you are reasonably coordinated when it breaks. If very uncoordinated - especially in a skid - most airplanes will snap over into a spin very rapidly. If you want to investigate this, do it in an aerobatic airplane with an aerobatic instructor.

People seem to fear stalls in a Mooney. I suspect it is because the Mooney wing has a more abrupt stall break than trainers. Also, some tend to drop a wing at the break which is disconcerting. This is corrected with rudder, but that is a learned response and the natural tendency is to try to use the ailerons which makes matters worse. During factory flight test, the stall strips on the wings were positioned to produce a nearly wings level stall (CAR 3 actually permits up to a 15 deg roll if recovery is delayed for one second). But over time, hangar rash, repairs, small rigging errors, etc. can cause a particular airplane to drop a wing at the stall.

Mooney stalls are not a problem if you stay within what was demonstrated at certification: coordinated flight, deceleration at the rate of one mph per second until either stall or the elevator is fully deflected. If you want to investigate more aggressive situations, do it in an airplane designed for spins.

Edited January 9 by PT20J

[Ragsf15e]

When I got my F I wanted to work on all kinds of stalls and upsets but knew enough not to spin.  One i tried was ~60% power, clean, climbing, feet on the floor (on purpose). So it was uncoordinated.  And yes, it rolled over on a wing rapidly.  If you weren’t ready for it, it would be eye watering. Nose comes down very fast as well as the bank increases.  I don’t think this is something that needs practiced a lot, but I feel like seeing an incipient spin once or twice in the Mooney was worthwhile.  To be clear, it didn’t spin, as I initiated recovery at the break, but when it stalls uncoordinated, lots of things happen fast.

[LANCECASPER]

[mention=52615]SilentT[/mention]
I'm trying to locate a PDF regarding Mooney spin characteristics written by Mooney test pilot Bob Kromer. Thought it might be in MS downloads, but it isn't. Bottom line is there are very good reasons that intentional spins are prohibited in Mooneys. From what I remember it is imperative to apply anti-spin control inputs immediately and agressively. I'll post the file if I ever find it.
While a student at ERAU in 1977 we all routinely and regularly practiced the 3 basic stalls in the M20C, both dual and solo. They are certainly nothing to be fearful of, but a certain amount of respect is warranted as with any aircraft. There was one occasion where I spoke to a student, who, as an observer from the back seat on a dual flight, had the flight instructor fail to intevene early and an inadvertent spin was entered. The altitude loss was significant, and he felt they'd never recover. It had happened earlier in the week and this guy was still visibly shaken just recounting the experience.
If you want to become skilled at spin recorvery, find a reputable company that teaches aerobatics in a certified aircraft. I did exactly this in 1994 in a Pitts S2A with a former IAC National Silver Medalist. This comprised every possible botched stall entry and covered both upright and inverted spins. Trust me it will be the best money you'll ever spend.
 

This isn’t Bob’s article on spins but slips, but talks about uncoordinated flights in Mooneys.2019-AprTMF slips in a mooney.pdf