1980Mooney Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 42 minutes ago, Yetti said: Oh the contract would be written such that we are just a warehouse for the engines and they get paid when we hang it. O360 IO360 IO550 Would have to think about inhousing of the Rocket Manufacturing support. If Kerrville is "just a warehouse for the engines" then Lycoming and Continental could pull them "out of the warehouse" and sell them to others as they get orders.....
Yetti Posted October 23 Author Report Posted October 23 4 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: They are effectively doing that. If you do into the Kerrville County Central Appraisal District page that you copied above you will see that Mooney has not paid their property taxes for 2025 which were due in January, 2025. And half of the items above, totaling $3.37 million are "leasehold improvements" (on Mooney's Balance Sheet as an "asset") which Mooney loses if they move out of the facility to save money. Ironically, they have to pay property taxes every year on those improvements. Yep I saw that and that would be discussion with the appraisal board. I would suggest they zero out the improvements for some period of years because if they don't the City/County/School District is going to have a bunch of empty buildings that are just sitting there with no chance for tax revenue forever.
Utah20Gflyer Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 If there was a plan to make money with the purchase of Mooney then I’ll put in 10k. But that’s a big IF. What is the plan? Buying the company or its Assets is just grabbing a tiger by the tail. The operating capital required is going to dwarf the initial purchase price. So how exactly are the Assets and a huge pile of money going to be converted into sellable products that create profits to sustain the ongoing operations and make my 10k investment turn into a 20k investment? 3
Bartman Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 The best way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start out with a large fortune. I’m not touching this with a 39 and 1/2 foot pole. 4
Aerodon Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 3 hours ago, Hank said: It would be better to have a contract with Lycoming and Continental for priority of engine deliveries. Then you don't tie up scarce capital in large chunks by having engines sitting in the warehouse--and you don't have to worry about stocking the wrong variant(s). I think Van's had 400 engine deposits of $10k. Then they received the balance before delivery. Then they paid Lycoming 30 days. But when they went bankrupt, the deposit holders lost.
Echo Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 The first part I purchased from Lasar when I bought my first Mooney was a baggage door hold open. It is a simple part that twenty years age cost $7.00 with shipping. The same part is available in quantity on Ebay for $113. There appears to be some money to be made on parts... I, however, have ZERO interest in expanding my Mooney pit into stock purchase. Barnum & Baley would of loved this crowd. 2
Yetti Posted October 24 Author Report Posted October 24 A factory installed autopilot would also be a hot ticket item
McMooney Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 I"d be interested if there's a plan to make a profitable business out of it. heck produce a e/j size aircraft under mosaic, work on automating production.
amillet Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 So far you have subscriptions for $5K, $5K, $5K and $10K. Yetti, you are down to 20% minority interest. 2
PT20J Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 The missing component to secure interest in investment is a business plan. 4 4
Utah20Gflyer Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 I’m going to commit heresy and just say that while I love my Mooney it probably doesn’t make sense to build airplanes the same way they were 60 years ago. This makes the equipment you would be buying from Mooney worth almost nothing. If you modernized the construction then you would essentially have a new airplane that would need to be re-certified. So why even buy the old company? Make a LSA trainer, a Mid body with doors on both sides, a long body with a new wing and gear, six seats and a rear door, and redesign the Mustang as a six place pressurized turbine. There have been advances in design over the years. It would make sense to combine the positive attributes of the old Mooneys with new features that would make them better. You don’t need old Mooney to do that. I propose a New Mooney, we could call it Nooney? Anyone have 250 million to make this happen? 1 1
EricJ Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 1 hour ago, PT20J said: The missing component to secure interest in investment is a business plan. And a balance sheet with a debt picture. Also, some indication of the owners or a bankruptcy judge willing to sell to you. 1 1
christaylor302 Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 I think factory supported upgrades to the existing fleet is one of the better ideas here. You need to re-use as much of the infrastructure as possible to have a chance at turning a profit or branching out into new airframes and certifications. I agree it would need new management. Not just an influx of cash. 1
hazek Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 2 hours ago, christaylor302 said: I agree it would need new management. Not just an influx of cash. And I hope OP and other willing subscribers are aware that buying stock from current owners is not even that! 1
Yetti Posted October 24 Author Report Posted October 24 11 hours ago, amillet said: So far you have subscriptions for $5K, $5K, $5K and $10K. Yetti, you are down to 20% minority interest. Ya but I am only a 45 minute Mooney Flight away from the Factory so I can pop over there and be THAT shareholder. Remember several rounds ago when the new buyers bought it and then started asking what to do. https://generalaviationnews.com/2015/10/13/mooney-launches-certified-pre-owned-program/ The G1000 Factory Refresh program would be some pretty good income along with selling the drones to Ukraine since they are just going to blow them up and need more. 1
Yetti Posted October 24 Author Report Posted October 24 3 hours ago, hazek said: And I hope OP and other willing subscribers are aware that buying stock from current owners is not even that! Pretend we are buying assets out of bankruptcy. Clean slate.
Paul Thomas Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 24 minutes ago, Yetti said: Pretend we are buying assets out of bankruptcy. Clean slate. Even with that, you a clear plan is needed. What is the new ownership structure going to look like, how is the board going to be structured, what are the intentions for the new company, how is the day to day going to be run, etc.
Skates97 Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 19 hours ago, Vance Harral said: I'm in for $5K as shareholder #2, provided I can be a silent investor with no actual responsibilities such as decision making, attending meetings, or really doing any kind of work at all. Basically I want the same responsibility as when I buy a share of any other company on the open stock market. I delegate all "authority" my ownership buys me to @Yetti I am 100% serious about this. If Mooney owners were actually able to purchase the assets of Mooney, I'd contribute $5K just for the amusement value. I'd jump in for the same reason. It wouldn't be the first time I threw some money at something in the market to see if it would stick. 1 hour ago, Yetti said: Ya but I am only a 45 minute Mooney Flight away from the Factory so I can pop over there and be THAT shareholder. Remember several rounds ago when the new buyers bought it and then started asking what to do. https://generalaviationnews.com/2015/10/13/mooney-launches-certified-pre-owned-program/ The G1000 Factory Refresh program would be some pretty good income along with selling the drones to Ukraine since they are just going to blow them up and need more. Nothing quite like a guaranteed returning customer. Almost like selling software subscriptions.
DCarlton Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 12 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said: I’m going to commit heresy and just say that while I love my Mooney it probably doesn’t make sense to build airplanes the same way they were 60 years ago. This makes the equipment you would be buying from Mooney worth almost nothing. If you modernized the construction then you would essentially have a new airplane that would need to be re-certified. So why even buy the old company? Make a LSA trainer, a Mid body with doors on both sides, a long body with a new wing and gear, six seats and a rear door, and redesign the Mustang as a six place pressurized turbine. There have been advances in design over the years. It would make sense to combine the positive attributes of the old Mooneys with new features that would make them better. You don’t need old Mooney to do that. I propose a New Mooney, we could call it Nooney? Anyone have 250 million to make this happen? Are there any US companies designing a new GA aircraft or a variant of an existing GA aircraft that's not an LSA or experimental? With China owning much of Cirrus now, is there any hope for US GA design or manufacturing other than existing Piper and Cessna designs until the end of time? 1
SilentT Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 I mean look, I'm a new mooney owner, I know nothing of the struggle. But I do ok with business... Why even talk about new planes. Thats R&D dollars and theres no way to cover those expenses now. New planes wont make money. Massive capital tie up, no production ramp, demand is too low, etc. Step one is what I see happening: Get the high margin business on solid footing; parts and Service. Parts production has to go up. Inventory is going to tie up all capital for the next 3-5 years. The fleet must stay in the air, or the game is over. Point, peroid, end of that topic. Step two: Only after profitability with parts and service; New developements on existing platforms. If you are going to spend development dollars, make sure its where the fleet needs it. What thing does everyone know is worng, or know how to make better, but doesnt have the development / regulatory power to push through. Step three: new training platform. When the team grows, develop a training platform. Low wing, fixed gear, hearty mooney for the training market, needs to be TAA to cover the commerical requirement in lieu of RG because no flight schools are buying an RG ever again. Step four: continuous improvement on prior platforms. Stay current with Acclaim / Ovation (premium tier), Relaunch the J/K with 4banger, and continued trainer. There is really no reason to go beyond a simple product offering and do it well. But it all starts with the high margin offerings which is parts and service. Getting past step 1 could take 5-10 years, just is what it is. 2
toto Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 13 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said: I’m going to commit heresy and just say that while I love my Mooney it probably doesn’t make sense to build airplanes the same way they were 60 years ago. This makes the equipment you would be buying from Mooney worth almost nothing. If you modernized the construction then you would essentially have a new airplane that would need to be re-certified. So why even buy the old company? Does the FAA actually certify the manufacturing process as part of the type certificate? If you took a whack at massively improving the process but produced substantially similar parts, would it require recertifying the airframe? My Mooney compares very favorably on paper to most new four-place aircraft designs, especially if you consider the operating and maintenance costs of a four-banger engine. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that Mooney is going to outsell Textron any time soon, but I’d love to see what an expert could do to the build time.
1980Mooney Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 4 hours ago, toto said: Does the FAA actually certify the manufacturing process as part of the type certificate? If you took a whack at massively improving the process but produced substantially similar parts, would it require recertifying the airframe? My Mooney compares very favorably on paper to most new four-place aircraft designs, especially if you consider the operating and maintenance costs of a four-banger engine. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that Mooney is going to outsell Textron any time soon, but I’d love to see what an expert could do to the build time. This is like alchemy. "Massively improving the process of building similar parts"??? Mooney is a job shop that builds a few things at a time at most. From comments here and myself included, there are few owners here that buy more than $100/year of Mooney factory built parts (exclude all third party Mooney parts - wing sight gauges, flexible intake cowling for Vintage models, landing gear actuators, etc), With a fleet of 7,000, that will generate $700,000 per year at most. Then if you say that there are 100 gear-ups/landing FUBAR's per year that generate $7,000/incident in Mooney part sales that is another $700,000 per year. And if we are generous and say maybe another $600,000 per year in parts for hangar rash, hail, corrosion, etc then that brings total Revenue per year to a whopping $2 million. After material cost and overhead (rent, utilities, security, insurance, legal, accounting, etc), I bet that they can barely afford 10 employees and a manager. There is no time or money to change anything. 4
MikeOH Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 26 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: There is no time or money to change anything. BINGO! All this armchair criticism of "current management" fails to account for that fact! I think Jonny has done the best anyone could have given exactly the business' sales limitations you laid out. I'd also like to point out Mooney has been 'passed around' plenty by other management teams/owners; aviation is a tough business, especially long term success for any single company. Deep pockets is almost a requirement for weathering long term survival. Frankly, having the Chicoms bankrolling Cirrus is a big part of their continued success; holding a decent inventory is possible, along with factory improvements, marketing...everything that goes along with having plenty of working capital at your disposal. Same story with TEXTRON's ownership of GA manufacturers. Mooney lost its active support (capital) from the Chinese a while back... 1
PT20J Posted October 25 Report Posted October 25 I’ve owned my M20J for 7 years. I’ve bought a bunch of parts, but the only Mooney factory parts were 3” rudder pedal extensions and a nose gear leg. 2
toto Posted October 25 Report Posted October 25 2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: This is like alchemy. "Massively improving the process of building similar parts"??? Mooney is a job shop that builds a few things at a time at most. From comments here and myself included, there are few owners here that buy more than $100/year of Mooney factory built parts (exclude all third party Mooney parts - wing sight gauges, flexible intake cowling for Vintage models, landing gear actuators, etc), With a fleet of 7,000, that will generate $700,000 per year at most. Then if you say that there are 100 gear-ups/landing FUBAR's per year that generate $7,000/incident in Mooney part sales that is another $700,000 per year. And if we are generous and say maybe another $600,000 per year in parts for hangar rash, hail, corrosion, etc then that brings total Revenue per year to a whopping $2 million. After material cost and overhead (rent, utilities, security, insurance, legal, accounting, etc), I bet that they can barely afford 10 employees and a manager. There is no time or money to change anything. I understand the challenges facing the factory today, but I’m genuinely interested to know whether you could improve the assembly of aircraft and aircraft parts without having to recertify the airframe. I’m just ignorant of those requirements, i.e., whether the process itself is certified or just the airframe and components. For the sake of discussion, if Howard Hughes rose from the dead and wanted only to reduce the 9000-hour Mooney build time, could he overhaul the manufacturing process without having to recertify the airframe? 1
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