Considering buying an M20

[CFIcare]

Hi y'all,

New member, my first post here.  I'm considering buying an M20 and looking for some opinions/advice.  I'd like to spend right around 100K.  I'd like to get something with an already upgraded panel to include 2 G5's (or equivalent) modern engine monitor, ideally JPI 930 primary, and if possible a GFC500.  Quite a wish list, right?

I kind of like the idea of a Johnson bar which helps narrow the search.  Seems like a pretty safe and simple system vs. electric gear with a backup.  But I'm looking for opinions on whether to consider Mooney's with electric gear. Any difference in maintenance costs for johnson bar vs. electric?

Anyway, here's a few listings I'm looking at, opinions/advice welcome!

 

No engine monitor, high time engine.  Anyone know the approximate cost and wait time for a good overhaul? Is factory rebuilt even an option?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2448787&s-type=aircraft

 

No autopilot:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/249187751/1966-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft

 

Old autopilot, presumably would replace with a GFC500:

https://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=199015&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=62346357&dealerid=

 

Thanks everybody!

 

 

 

 

[gabez]

I think 100K for everything is a bit tight. you will probably have to sacrifice, engine or avionics. it seems you have already discovered it yourself. I would personally be happy with a lesser autopilot/avionics and focus more on a solid engine. you can fly with lesser avionics but you can't fly with a bad motor 

[Ragsf15e]

Are you going to fly primarily ifr or vfr?  How many people are going to get in?  Will an E or C work?

I had an electric gear F for 10 years, the gear was reliable and any extra cost was a rounding error after 10 years.

[Fritz1]

second that, solid airframe without corrosion, engine that is flown regularly, one decent radio, 530W or 430W, then comes the rest, airplanes that are paid for in cash typically sound best and pilot sleeps well at night, welcome aboard!

[Vance Harral]

We are in the process of deciding to overhaul the runout IO-360 in our M20F, which is actually running fine, but has enough small issues after 2500 hours and 34 years that it's time.  The general numbers on overhauling (not factory zero time) this engine at a well-known shop are $50-60K all-in cost (including paying our local mechanic to R&R the engine, new hoses, and other ancillary items not paid directly to the overhaul shop); and lead times at all the well-known overhaul shops running at least 6 months and in some cases over a year.  You can get it done sooner/cheaper than this only if you stumble across an "interesting" deal, e.g. an engine already in a local shop for overhaul on which the owner has decided they no longer want the engine (we found one of these, but decided to pass on it).  Based on recent market research, we think the $60K cost of an overhaul will increase the market value of our airplane by about $40K, so at first glance, engine overhaul is a money losing deal.  We're going to do it anyway because we think the value of sentiment and the "devil we know" is worth that $20K delta, not to mention the travel/tax/opportunity costs of selling our airplane and buying something else.  In your case, though, any airplane you buy would be new to you with potential unknown issues.  As such, I'd say it's a bad idea to buy a runout and immediately try to get it overhauled, unless you just happen to find a specimen that's extraordinary in all other factors that matter.

Installing a GFC500 is going to cost $14-20K all-in cost at any well-known shop, depending on whether you want trim and yaw damper servos.  it will increase the value of the airplane by about half that amount on the open market.

Regarding landing gear in M20F and older models, the difference in parts cost is just whether you ever need new lock blocks for the manual gear, or new internal gears for the Dukes/ITT actuators on the electric gear birds.  Many Mooney owners go decades without needing either, in which case there is no difference.  If you do need to replace these major components, the cost of lock blocks on the manual gear birds is less than the cost of internal gears in the electric actuators, but both can be a hassle to find legal replacements for, as documented elsewhere on this board.  There is also a difference in inspection costs between manual vs. electric gear, due to Airworthiness directive 75-23-04 requiring inspection of the actuator internals per Mooney SB 109B at regular intervals.  The additional work and cost of this inspection is relatively small compared to total operating costs, but it's a minor irritant for experienced owners, and a point of trepidation for new owners who must go through the learning curve of getting the inspection done safely.

Having recently done a market analysis on our airplane for insurance valuation purposes, I agree with @gabez that $100K is light in the current market for exactly what you've specified as your dream airplane.  But the good news is that I think you're not far off.  I think you can find something for $100K involving only minor concessions, or you could pay slightly more than $100K for a really good match.

All this is just my two cents, of course, and I could be wrong.  Even if I'm not, the market moves around all the time, and there's always a chance you'll find a unicorn deal from a motivated seller.

[Mooneymite]

58 minutes ago, CFIcare said:

Hi y'all,

New member, my first post here.  I'm considering buying an M20 and ....

 

Let's start with why you are buying a Mooney.  I owned, flew and maintained a Mooney for 25 years and had a great experience.  However, today I would probably not do it again.  Mooneys are getting old.  Certain parts are nearly impossible to find and many of the people and resources who keep Mooneys going are timing out.  Be careful...

I know that new airplanes with Mooney capabilities are getting to be out of financial range for many people, but buying an airplane that is difficult to maintain is not the solution.

Would you consider an experimental aircraft?  While I owned my Mooney, I also owned and maintained various experimental aircraft.  Different world.

I encourage you to look around.   I understand your enchantment with a Mooney it was a great airplane.

 

(Yes, I know this is not going to be a popular post on Mooneyspace.)  

 

[Echo]

Simple answer is No.  You can NOT buy a vintage Mooney equipped to your dream list for $100k.  Spend $120k and buy a later model J with convertible rear seats.

[CFIcare]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Are you going to fly primarily ifr or vfr?  How many people are going to get in?  Will an E or C work?

I had an electric gear F for 10 years, the gear was reliable and any extra cost was a rounding error after 10 years.

I'd like a good single pilot IFR platform, that's why I'd like the glass and autopilot.

It will primarily be me, my wife and 2 year old.  We don't plan to have more and we're thin, so seems like we'll all fit.

[PeterRus]

There you go: https://indyairsales.com/current-inventory/aircraft/beechcraft-beech-bonanza-g35-exceptional-low-time-mattituck-overhaul-garmin-equipped/

[hammdo]

That is nice! Check that ruddervator!

[CFIcare]

1 hour ago, Fritz1 said:

second that, solid airframe without corrosion, engine that is flown regularly, one decent radio, 530W or 430W, then comes the rest, airplanes that are paid for in cash typically sound best and pilot sleeps well at night, welcome aboard!

Thanks!

I'm kind of going off the Mike Busch philosophy to let the seller spend the money on the panel upgrade since they lose the money when they sell it.  Also avoids the downtime for the panel work.  Airframe without corrosion is, of course, the most important thing.  As far as engine, it seems like very few airplanes for sale are being flown as regularly as I'd like.  I have a 152 aerobat and fly it at least once a week.  

[CFIcare]

6 minutes ago, PeterRus said:

There you go: https://indyairsales.com/current-inventory/aircraft/beechcraft-beech-bonanza-g35-exceptional-low-time-mattituck-overhaul-garmin-equipped/

That's quite a find!  I looked at some bo's but thought they'd be way out of my price range for one that's well-equipped.  Is this so cheap because it's so old? Or is it that hideous cork board panel?  Are those landing gear lights or thumb tacks?

But I guess if I'm looking at planes from the 60's, I shouldn't really turn up my nose at the 50's.  That's where rock and roll came from anyway.

Do you have any connection to this plane or just have excellent googling skills?  How did you find? Thanks for sending!

[DCarlton]

12 minutes ago, PeterRus said:

There you go: https://indyairsales.com/current-inventory/aircraft/beechcraft-beech-bonanza-g35-exceptional-low-time-mattituck-overhaul-garmin-equipped/

Wow.  Someone loved that airplane.  

[DCarlton]

1 minute ago, CFIcare said:

 Or is it that hideous cork board panel?   

Think of it as burled maple.   

[CFIcare]

2 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Wow.  Someone loved that airplane.  

Now that I look at it, I don't think it's cork board, it salvaged kitchen countertop formica.

[DCarlton]

Just now, CFIcare said:

Now that I look at it, I don't think it's cork board, it salvaged kitchen countertop formica.

In burled maple.  ;>

[CFIcare]

Alright Mooney folks, if I'm willing to bump up my budget to 120, someone find me a Mo to compete with that Bo!

[Vance Harral]

17 minutes ago, CFIcare said:

As far as engine, it seems like very few airplanes for sale are being flown as regularly as I'd like.

This is not some sort of oddity, it's the normal state of the market.  Yes, people sometimes sell an airplane they're flying regularly, because they want to upgrade or their mission is changing in the near future.  But it's much more common to sell when the mission has already changed, the shine wears off, the finances can no longer support operations, or some combination of all those things.

Regarding the Bonanza posted above, note that the G-35 model has the Continental E-225 engine and the magnesium ruddervators.  This is not "bad", at least probably not worse than Mooney parts support, and I believe the Beech community has successfully executed their campaign to solve the magnesium tail feather problem.  But the engine and the ruddervator concerns are part of the reason for the low price of that airplane relative to others with similar equipment and capability.

[CFIcare]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Let's start with why you are buying a Mooney.  I owned, flew and maintained a Mooney for 25 years and had a great experience.  However, today I would probably not do it again.  Mooneys are getting old.  Certain parts are nearly impossible to find and many of the people and resources who keep Mooneys going are timing out.  Be careful...

I know that new airplanes with Mooney capabilities are getting to be out of financial range for many people, but buying an airplane that is difficult to maintain is not the solution.

Would you consider an experimental aircraft?  While I owned my Mooney, I also owned and maintained various experimental aircraft.  Different world.

I encourage you to look around.   I understand your enchantment with a Mooney it was a great airplane.

 

(Yes, I know this is not going to be a popular post on Mooneyspace.)  

 

Great post, thanks.  I read the recent lasar post and that educated me about the parts availability.  I'm drawn to them by the possibility of getting one at a reasonably low price and still having a relatively fast plane.  The fuel efficiency is an added bonus.  I can't see my way around buying a 182 or something that goes slower and uses more gas, not to mention they're more expensive.

As far as experimental, I'm looking for 4 seats which is slightly limiting, but most of what I see is really expensive.  Glassairs, RV's and such.  Any suggestions in the experimental world in the 100-120K range?

[Echo]

Some peoples taste is in their mouth only?

[CFIcare]

6 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Regarding the Bonanza posted above, note that the G-35 model has the Continental E-225 engine and the magnesium ruddervators.  This is not "bad", at least probably not worse than Mooney parts support, and I believe the Beech community has successfully executed their campaign to solve the magnesium tail feather problem.  But the engine and the ruddervator concerns are part of the reason for the low price of that airplane relative to others with similar equipment and capability.

Great intel, thanks!

[CFIcare]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

We are in the process of deciding to overhaul the runout IO-360 in our M20F, which is actually running fine, but has enough small issues after 2500 hours and 34 years that it's time.  The general numbers on overhauling (not factory zero time) this engine at a well-known shop are $50-60K all-in cost (including paying our local mechanic to R&R the engine, new hoses, and other ancillary items not paid directly to the overhaul shop); and lead times at all the well-known overhaul shops running at least 6 months and in some cases over a year.  You can get it done sooner/cheaper than this only if you stumble across an "interesting" deal, e.g. an engine already in a local shop for overhaul on which the owner has decided they no longer want the engine (we found one of these, but decided to pass on it).  Based on recent market research, we think the $60K cost of an overhaul will increase the market value of our airplane by about $40K, so at first glance, engine overhaul is a money losing deal.  We're going to do it anyway because we think the value of sentiment and the "devil we know" is worth that $20K delta, not to mention the travel/tax/opportunity costs of selling our airplane and buying something else.  In your case, though, any airplane you buy would be new to you with potential unknown issues.  As such, I'd say it's a bad idea to buy a runout and immediately try to get it overhauled, unless you just happen to find a specimen that's extraordinary in all other factors that matter.

Installing a GFC500 is going to cost $14-20K all-in cost at any well-known shop, depending on whether you want trim and yaw damper servos.  it will increase the value of the airplane by about half that amount on the open market.

Regarding landing gear in M20F and older models, the difference in parts cost is just whether you ever need new lock blocks for the manual gear, or new internal gears for the Dukes/ITT actuators on the electric gear birds.  Many Mooney owners go decades without needing either, in which case there is no difference.  If you do need to replace these major components, the cost of lock blocks on the manual gear birds is less than the cost of internal gears in the electric actuators, but both can be a hassle to find legal replacements for, as documented elsewhere on this board.  There is also a difference in inspection costs between manual vs. electric gear, due to Airworthiness directive 75-23-04 requiring inspection of the actuator internals per Mooney SB 109B at regular intervals.  The additional work and cost of this inspection is relatively small compared to total operating costs, but it's a minor irritant for experienced owners, and a point of trepidation for new owners who must go through the learning curve of getting the inspection done safely.

Having recently done a market analysis on our airplane for insurance valuation purposes, I agree with @gabez that $100K is light in the current market for exactly what you've specified as your dream airplane.  But the good news is that I think you're not far off.  I think you can find something for $100K involving only minor concessions, or you could pay slightly more than $100K for a really good match.

All this is just my two cents, of course, and I could be wrong.  Even if I'm not, the market moves around all the time, and there's always a chance you'll find a unicorn deal from a motivated seller.

Regarding buying a high time engine, I'm again thinking about Mike Busch's advice.  Plane will be steeply discounted and while the engine may need an overhaul right away, it may, in fact, run for hundreds of hours (which would equal several years for me).  I'm seeing some high time engines that have had recent top overhauls so maybe there's a chance of that actually happening.  On the other hand, I don't think these planes are steeply enough discounted considering a 60K overhaul.  And then, as I suspected and you confirmed, there's the down time.

Would 120 be considered slightly more than 100?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Think of it as burled maple.   

It looks like burled maple or bird's eye maple veneer. It may not be everyone's choice but if you're into vintage Bentley, Rolls or Jaguar I could understand how a wood veneer could be appealing to someone. https://glveneer.com/burl-wood-veneer-10-unique-species-we-offer/

[Vance Harral]

42 minutes ago, CFIcare said:

Plane will be steeply discounted and while the engine may need an overhaul right away, it may, in fact, run for hundreds of hours

This is generally sound reasoning, and is exactly why we're running an engine with 2500+ hours and 34 years since overhaul.  But it's less attractive reasoning in an era of very long lead times on overhauls, and that's why we're pulling the trigger on ordering an overhauled engine now, even though we're still comfortable flying behind our current engine at the moment.  The "wait until the engine tells you it really needs an overhaul" strategy assumes the cost of an overhaul is just dollars.  But in the current market it is actually dollars plus many months of downtime.  That makes a non-runout engine slightly more attractive, even though you can't know for sure that the non-runout will run longer.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, CFIcare said:

Regarding buying a high time engine, I'm again thinking about Mike Busch's advice.  Plane will be steeply discounted and while the engine may need an overhaul right away, it may, in fact, run for hundreds of hours (which would equal several years for me).  I'm seeing some high time engines that have had recent top overhauls so maybe there's a chance of that actually happening.

THIS is the path I took 8 years ago.  I bought a 1970 F model with decent paint and interior, the avionics I wanted (WAAS GPS/ILS, engine monitor, and autopilot), but a high-time (2100 hours) engine at a fantastic price.  I now have 2700 hours on the engine and, like Vance, it's still running great!

Honestly, I rather liked that I will be in control of the OH, rather than the unknown condition of lower time engine.

To me, I think the reason I 'got lucky' is that my criteria for purchase was continuous frequent use by the previous owner.  The PO of my plane owned it for 13 years and flew it 100 hours or more per year.  Finding this kind of usage is harder than you may think!  Based on that criteria I would take a good look at that '67 C model you linked; it appears to be in regular use.  If you can knock some off that $80K price you could weather an immediate OH, if needed, but odds are you could fly a good while before coughing up the $50K.