My quest for speed

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, AndreiC said:

@ArtVandelay this is like one of those pictures where you don't notice a guy with half a mustache because of a good looking girl in the foreground... took me 5 minutes to understand what you were talking about.

I honestly thought my previous Cherokee was the Honda Civic of airplanes...

I did my private in a Cherokee.  It’s the Ford Fiesta of airplanes.  

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Hey, that’s hitting close to home.

Wow,  your Mooney is beautiful!  

[DCarlton]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

So speedwise, your E is well within the normal range for the model if not a tad on the slow side.  The three bladed prop is not as efficient as a two blade. There are plenty of people who will tell you that it doesn’t make a difference and there are plenty that will tell you it’s costing you 5kts. You won’t have any idea unless you change propellers.

The truth is, it doesn’t matter because from a practical matter, none of these planes are separated by that much in terms of speed.

I have a 67F that I know it will do just over 150kts in cruise at just about any altitude under 10,000 feet. That being said, my current average GPS block speed as tracked over the last 5000nm is 144.9kts. It just recently fell below 145kts because of several trips under two hours that tend towards lower block speeds (for obvious reasons).

What would I need to do to get a significant increase in speed?

I’ve thought about this many times. Aircraft owners tend to assign a whole lot of value to things that really don’t make that big of a difference operationally. That’s why you’ll see people brag over a 7kt difference in cruise speed. 

The reality is that for me to realize a significant increase in time compression, range, and load carrying capacity, I would have to move into a high-performance twin or a turbine. 

Sometimes the best course of action is to recognize that what you have is delivering excellent, output value for the input.

If you want to tweak your E to be faster, I think that’s an admirable pursuit, it may respond to some minor massaging. However, even if you were able to fettle and message it into 155kt cruiser, the time savings for most trips would be minuscule.

I stopped wishing my bird was more than it is a long time ago and just decided to admire it for how well it does what it does. 

Same here.  I think my F has every previously available speed mod; sloped windscreen, SWTA “201” cowl, one piece belly, wing root fairings, wing tips, dorsal fin, gap seals, flap hinge covers, updated antennas.  Its roughly a 153 knot airplane with a three blade.  Not far from 148.  IMO it’s the climb performance and fuel efficiency that beats much of the competition.  I don’t mind sacrificing a few knots in cruise for better climb performance.  

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Same here.  I think my F has every previously available speed mod; sloped windscreen, SWTA “201” cowl, one piece belly, wing root fairings, wing tips, dorsal fin, gap seals, flap hinge covers, updated antennas.  Its roughly a 153 knot airplane with a three blade.  Not far from 148.  IMO it’s the climb performance and fuel efficiency that beats much of the competition.  I don’t mind sacrificing a few knots in cruise for better climb performance.  

Conversely, my F is bone stock and I am loath to have anyone mod it or touch the control surfaces for fear of slowing it down.  Mine was a factory demonstrator for an East Coast Mooney dealer and I wonder if the rigging was given special attention in order to demo best case performance for potential customers.

[Echo]

Lol. Some date themselves or should educate themselves as it’s not the 1970’s-1990’s. The Honda Civic Type R will blow the doors off the majority of your rides and corner and stop better as well.  I take a Civic comparison as a compliment.  Long bodies are like a Suburban to me and flying on oxygen when a commercial flight is ten minutes from my door is silly to me. 
 

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Echo said:

Lol. Some date themselves or should educate themselves as it’s not the 1970’s-1990’s. The Honda Civic Type R will blow the doors off the majority of your rides and corner and stop better as well.  I take a Civic comparison as a compliment.  Long bodies are like a Suburban to me and flying on oxygen when a commercial flight is ten minutes from my door is silly to me. 
 

A Civic Type R is not what folks think of when one says Civic any more than a Focus RS is what folks think of when one says Focus.

Honda makes fine cars, but my perception of Civics after years of conditioning is badly modded chassis with terrible aftermarket lighting, stroked and poked tires that rub fenders and fart can mufflers...VTEC just kicked in yo.

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Conversely, my F is bone stock and I am loath to have anyone mod it or touch the control surfaces for fear of slowing it down.  Mine was a factory demonstrator for an East Coast Mooney dealer and I wonder if the rigging was given special attention in order to demo best case performance for potential customers.

That's a great data point.  Would be very interesting to compare our two airplanes side by side in a carefully orchestrated speed test.  

[Shadrach]

56 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

That's a great data point.  Would be very interesting to compare our two airplanes side by side in a carefully orchestrated speed test.  

Indeed it would. I have only flown formation with a C model. The difference in both climb and cruise surprised both of us. 

[Echo]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

A Civic Type R is not what folks think of when one says Civic any more than a Focus RS is what folks think of when one says Focus.

Honda makes fine cars, but my perception of Civics after years of conditioning is badly modded chassis with terrible aftermarket lighting, stroked and poked tires that rub fenders and fart can mufflers...VTEC just kicked in yo.

Ross, disappointed in you. A troll compares an E to a civic and you post that?  Meh. A ridiculous comparison that I made accurate based on ability to perform and you dismiss as ricer elitism. Do better man. 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Echo said:

Ross, disappointed in you. A troll compares an E to a civic and you post that?  Meh. A ridiculous comparison that I made accurate based on ability to perform and you dismiss as ricer elitism. Do better man. 

I am not trolling. I think the Type R is a great though not particularly good looking car (especially form behind).  That being said there is no getting away from decades of being the choice of budget minded young males with a drive to add the worst of what the aftermarket has to offer. It is what it is. 

I occasionally like riding Harleys, but it does not stop me from associating them with and disliking the recent trend within Harley culture to pair loud pipes with 200W stereo systems to ensure that everyone within 100yds has their ears assaulted by a single individual's noise. Even better when it's a pack of riders with everyone playing different music. Sorry it's not admirable behavior and it's pervasive...as is the number of Civics rolling around on eBay coil-overs with wheel spacers, straight-through exhausts and misaimed headlights sporting offroad only "Ice Blue" bulbs. 

It's unfortunate but the worst consumers contribute the most to a products public perception. 

[Echo]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I am not trolling. I think the Type R is a great though not particularly good looking car (especially form behind).  That being said there is no getting away from decades of being the choice of budget minded young males with a drive to add the worst of what the aftermarket has to offer. It is what it is. 

I occasionally like riding Harleys, but it does not stop me from associating them with and disliking the recent trend within Harley culture to pair loud pipes with 200W stereo systems to ensure that everyone within 100yds has ears assaulted by a single individuals noise. Even better when it a pack of riders with everyone playing different music. Sorry it's not admirable behavior and it's pervasive...as is the number of Civics rolling around on eBay coilovers with wheel spacers, straight through exhausts and misaimed headlights sporting offroad only "Ice Blue" bulbs. 

It's unfortunate but the worst consumers contribute the most to a products public perception. 

Ya, you need to work on your reading comprehension?  Did not call YOU a troll.  Called the first Gbody poster making absurd civic comparison a troll.  Then I said the R is a good comparison to the E based on speed/performance.  You then doubled down on ricers with Harley riders suck because they enjoy loud exhausts that you apparently find offensive.  FYI young primarily men can't afford a vintage jag so they have fun tuning their rides and paying money that supports many in U.S. that have business's that cater to them.  Your perception is that they are a problem instead of young people having fun.  I learned a long time ago how to avert my eyes vs. looking into high beams.  I believe the appropriate response to you might be O.K. Boomer...

[Echo]

Some people that live by airports want them closed down because...you know...noise.  How dare they!

[Echo]

If you were a cop in the 50's you would of loved pulling over Little Ford Coupes what with their exposed flathead engines and fenders removed.  Hooligans!  Young whippersnappers.  Why I outta...

[bonal]

In this day and age we are seeing much of our young people that have been convinced that driving cars and let’s be honest even mowing our lawns with anything powered by gas is going to destroy the planet and don’t even want to get a driver’s license. And oh yes the evil piston airplanes we love so much are included in that. So any one who has a passion for driving and modifying what they can to make it more fun I’m in support of. once upon a time I was that guy.  Some do it better than others but I think the desire is coming from the same place.  Unfortunately with our certified aircraft we can’t just start replacing camshafts and pistons and connecting nitrous for more speed we are very limited to what’s possible for improved speed which brings me back to the point about your quest for speed.  Following the suggestions before you might gain a few knots but other than a turbo which I think is still possible you’re pretty much there already.  Depending on the weather I can get 140 to 145 knots if I push it but 135 is a nice easy pace for my D/C and I’m just fine with that.  Regardless have fun with whatever ever you do.

[Shadrach]

17 minutes ago, Echo said:

Ya, you need to work on your reading comprehension?  Did not call YOU a troll.  Called the first Gbody poster making absurd civic comparison a troll.  Then I said the R is a good comparison to the E based on speed/performance.  You then doubled down on ricers with Harley riders suck because they enjoy loud exhausts that you apparently find offensive.  FYI young primarily men can't afford a vintage jag so they have fun tuning their rides and paying money that supports many in U.S. that have business's that cater to them.  Your perception is that they are a problem instead of young people having fun.  I learned a long time ago how to avert my eyes vs. looking into high beams.  I believe the appropriate response to you might be O.K. Boomer...

I was once a poor, young person.  I bought clapped out, auction cars for most of my youth.  I don't have a problem with loud pipes, I have a problem with installing ridiculously loud stereos to compete with loud pipes and subjecting everyone to the noise pollution.  Stupid is stupid.  I don't care how old the driver/pilot is.  Ever see a staggered wheel set on a front wheel drive car?  I'm sure it was a fun project for the guy doing it, but it does not make it any less dumb.  Ditto for the number of after market spoilers I've seen installed with positive AOA.

In maintenance circles, Mooney owners define the product.  We are stereotyped almost universally as...cheap.  Almost any shop owner can give a colorful example of the stereotype. The shop owner that I worked for in college used to say "Mooney owners are so used to going fast for so little gas that it is hard for them to comprehend that other aspects of airplane ownership are expensive."

[M20F-1968]

My 1968 F is in the J numbers but took a lot of work to get it there.  

10000 ft - 75% power - 160 kts ROP  11.5 GPH

10000 ft - 100% power - 168 kts ROP

17000-18000 ft - 75% power  175-180  kts. 11.5 GPH. (turbonormalized)

Take a look at my Album page -  You cannot tell it is as F - there is only one - all speed mods except inner gear doors.

John Breda

 

[EricJ]

19 hours ago, Shadrach said:

That is a better comparison...and the C172 is the for Taurus of aviation.

The Ford Taurus made a hell of a fine race car.   This was me at NASA Nationals at Miller Motorsports Park in 2009 taking 2nd in national championship (my first time attending nationals).   Set a lot of track records with that car. 

[McMooney]

9 hours ago, Echo said:

Lol. Some date themselves or should educate themselves as it’s not the 1970’s-1990’s. The Honda Civic Type R will blow the doors off the majority of your rides and corner and stop better as well.  I take a Civic comparison as a compliment.  Long bodies are like a Suburban to me and flying on oxygen when a commercial flight is ten minutes from my door is silly to me. 
 

yeah but it's still a Honda Civic

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Apt for a short body. The mid body is an excellent family hauler so it does not quite fit. 

Mid body is like a BMW.  Great cruiser.  Hauls some stuff.   Fast.

 

M20K 252/Encore in the hangar and two M3s in the garage.

[Shadrach]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

The Ford Taurus made a hell of a fine race car.   This was me at NASA Nationals at Miller Motorsports Park in 2009 taking 2nd in national championship (my first time attending nationals).   Set a lot of track records with that car. 

I guess I’ve never really considered that one might be able to set track records with a front wheel drive car. It seems fundamentally to be the wrong tool for the job. I’ve enjoyed lots of front drivers as street cars (Cooper S and Fiat Abart in particular) but I’ve never thought of the them as track cars… But then I don’t race, so what do I know?

[AndreiC]

Maybe as the OP I will add that whoever guessed Porsche 914 has my vote. That is my fun car  Here is a pic of it. Born same year and month as myself. (That is the Porsche for CB's, 1/4 of the price of a 911...)

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I guess I’ve never really considered that one might be able to set track records with the front wheel drive car. It seems fundamentally to be the wrong tool for the job. I’ve enjoyed lots of front drivers as street cars (Cooper S and Fiat Abart in particular) but I’ve never thought of the mysterious track cars… But then I don’t race, so what do I know?

FWD has some exploitable  advantages up to about 300hp, then it's just a lot harder to get an advantage out of it.   Below that power level a good set of classification rules will level the playing field.   Honda Civics have been popular as race cars for a long time, and still are.   Minis have been raced effectively forever, too.   Note that all three of the cars in the pic are FWD, and the other two are two and three classes above me (I wasn't racing those guys).   IIRC that mini wound up taking the championship in his class that year.   I beat a couple RWD cars that year including an RX-8, and got beat by a Nissan SE-R Spec-V (also FWD).

[dkkim73]

23 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I did my private in a Cherokee.  It’s the Ford Fiesta of airplanes.  

Hmmm. Toyota Celica? 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

FWD has some exploitable  advantages up to about 300hp, then it's just a lot harder to get an advantage out of it.   Below that power level a good set of classification rules will level the playing field.   Honda Civics have been popular as race cars for a long time, and still are.   Minis have been raced effectively forever, too.   Note that all three of the cars in the pic are FWD, and the other two are two and three classes above me (I wasn't racing those guys).   IIRC that mini wound up taking the championship in his class that year.   I beat a couple RWD cars that year including an RX-8, and got beat by a Nissan SE-R Spec-V (also FWD).

I know that folks race fwd cars, I’m surprised that they’re setting track records. 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Hmmm. Toyota Celica? 

My first car was an high mileage, 85 Celica GTS coupe. It checked my three major boxes at 16 years old: 

Manual transmission

Rear drive

Under $3k