Preoilers - Are they beneficial

[M20F-1968]

I have a new preoiler which I originally put on my rebuilt 1968-F model, but then removed it due to weight concerns before completing the weight and balance.  I now feel as though there is sufficient useful load to consider it putting back on, but need a better sense of whether these things are indeed helpful.  I live in New England, have a Reiff heater, and can easily see myself using the plane in the winter to fly to Maine, NH, Vermont, and Canada where I may not have electric available or even a hangar overnight.  For those of you in the cold climates, please advise.

Thanks,

John Breda

[N601RX]

How much do they weigh?  Where do they mount? The electric motor/pump type I've saw that are STC'd look heavier and take up valuable space.  They also add some more spots for potential oil leakes. I would be interested if someone STC'd the storage cylinder type as used in many cars.  When the engine is running it basically forces a quart or so of oil into a storage cyinder under whatever your oil pressure is at the time and then closes a valve on the end of it.  Next time before you crank the engine the valve is opened and the pressuruized oil is fed back into the engine and everything is oiled.  This would be lightweight, take minimial space and be pretty much bulletproof.  I've saw these with both electric and manual valves.  Perhaphs another field approval project for your DER?

I suppose that an  external electrical pump system that stayed in the hanger and quick connect coupling might be possible also.

[Kwixdraw]

The preoiler you see in Trade-A-Plane wouldn't be what you want for cold weather. It's intended for aircraft that sit and have the oil drain off of the cam lobes and out of the plain bearings and such. The idea is to pressurize the system to reduce the wear when thing start to turn under power. The accumulator might very well do the same thing in a less complicated and lighter package. I'm not aware of any STCs for them but there may be some. MOROSO makes them for high performance cars.

[jetdriven]

No preoiler addresses the two most important parts to be pre-oiled: The cylinder walls and the camshaft.

[N601RX]

Quote: jetdriven

No preoiler addresses the two most important parts to be pre-oiled: The cylinder walls and the camshaft.

[jetdriven]

Mike, i just had the cylinders off and I know about the piston squirters. The are going to put some oil on the bottom of the piston, but half of your pistons are going to be near BDC and the wall is exposed on the head side, I just fail to see how any preoiler is going to make a measurable difference in cylinder wear, especially if it sits a couple weeks regularly. FWIW as long as you run it regular, I think Lycoming 360 cylinders are pretty trouble-free.

Regarding the centrilube cam, i think its an awesome idea, I wish I could get my roller cam drilled. It addresses the cold start scuffing, but not the corrosion and pitting on the cam lobes and lifter faces from sitting over 14 days.  But I think it is a huge step in the right direction. How do you like it?

Regarding the pre-oiler pump. You put it inline on the oil cooler hose. You do raise the possibility of some failure points with the extra connections and the pump itself.  IIRC someone here has a 231 and the pump started leaking, but they caught it before engine damage.  So, John has a good thread, is the additional benefit worth the additional cost, complexity, and weight? I suppose it depends.

[N601RX]

If it was put inline with the oil cooler how would it work?  When the engine is cold the ventherm is closed and is not going to allow any oil to flow through the oil cooler lines.  Then when you turn the gear pump on the preoiler off it isn't going to allow oil to flow through the oil cooler when it needs to.

 

Its plumbed into the oil filter housing with a check valve.

[M20F-1968]

The pre-oiler that I have is made by Oilamatic.  The web site is:  http://www.oilamatic.com/

It is a pump type pre-oiler. Weight about 6 lbs.  

Pros:  more oil at start-up

Cons:  does not do much for cylinders, camshaft lobes

          Weight - 6 lbs

          More connections and oil hoses to fail

John Breda

 

[N601RX]

John,

I think they are a great idea, I just wish someone would stc the accumulator type. I've saw a couple of these in certified planes, but assume it was under field approval. You just needs small tank, 1 hose and a manual valve with a pull cable or an electric valve.

I believe it would do a lot for the cam and cylinders, especially with the centri-lub or ney nozzles. Even without them,Assuming the pre oiler will develop 50 psi the oil from the piston squirters is going to hit the bottom of the pistons and splatter everywhere. The oil from the bearings  is going to collect up on the crank and rods. As soon an the motor starts, this oil will be immediately slung everywhere further oiling the cam and cylinders. 

Also by engaging the starter as the preluber is turned off will continue the flow of oil to the cylinder wall as the low pistons move toward the top of the cylinder. 

[KSMooniac]

Bumping an older thread... I'm considering adding such a rig during my overhaul.  

 

John, did you ever add it to your super F?  It is heavier than I would like as I protect my useful load as much as I can, but I think it might be worth the weight penalty.

[tony]

Im going to bump this thread again.  I'm down again for another cam. I fly at least twice a month if not four times.  Each flight is at least an hour.  The aircraft was down about 8 years ago for three months.  It may have  happened then.  Who knows. 

 

I was thinking of the oilamatic STC with Ney nozzles.  Anyone ever try that?

 

John, did you ever install the preoiler?  

[tony]

Well scratch that idea.  I think Chuck Ney Enterprises is out of business.  The phone has been disconnected and the domain is for sale.....

 

[carusoam]

There may have been an issue with parts falling off inside the engine...

Either way...

Pre-oiling doesn’t solve the latency problem...

The cam sits around and the oil runs off of it...

when the cam is not protected by oil, it runs into an oxidation challenge... as do the cam followers...

 

The latest solution for this challenge is either DLC, a coating on the followers... or rollers...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[RocketGnome]

How long can an engine sit before you start to worry about internal corrosion?

[carusoam]

Weekly... no worries...

two weeks... People get concerned and try to get a quick flight in...

three weeks... you start worrying if the pilot is getting rustier than the engine...

four weeks... you start assembling an engine dryer.... and connecting it to the internet with a nice sensor...

 

Then you balance this with other peoples experience... some people go for months without flying and have no issues....

Materials of construction, weather, storage conditions... all matter...
 

If you fly weekly, you won’t feel the rust monster...

If you fly twice each week... your landings will be impressive....

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

Then you balance this with other peoples experience... some people go for months without flying and have no issues....
Materials of construction, weather, storage conditions... all matter...

And change your oil frequently especially if you anticipate a long idle period(s).

[jlunseth]

I live in Minnesota, so it is plenty cold here in the winter. I have never had a problem getting current to run an electric pre-heater, but it sometimes takes some planning.  Most of the major FBOs can provide plug-in service of some kind. When I go to a smaller rural airport I call ahead of time, make sure there is some kind of place to plug in, find out where it is, and make sure its ok to do. I have never been told no. I will carry a long cord, sometimes a couple of hundred feet.  On occasion I have run it through the door of the airport building to an inside plug. In the places where you need to do that, no one bothers it there just is no traffic. Just getting oil distributed around the engine is not going to help much, you need to be able to turn it over and it needs to catch, which it can be reluctant to do in the winter. In my engine, a TSIO360LB, I can start it down to zero F if I have to, by using the high boost button to feed it fuel if it catches. It might not stay running the first time, but the second or third it will. I am talking about very cold weather now, it is an easy starter most of the year. I hate doing cold weather starts like that, plugging in is the way to go. 

I don’t open the cowl flaps on the ground in the winter. I mentioned that once and someone said you always have to or you risk hot spots. They don’t get it, I will take all the hot spots I can get at those temps. 

When you get it started you need to let the engine warm the engine compartment, run it for awhile. There are a number of things that can go wrong under the cowling if they have not had enough heat, things you would not expect.

Ugh, why are we talking about this in August???

Edited August 8, 2020 by jlunseth

[steingar]

I had  one in my Cherokee.  Had to spool it up before engine start.  Can't say how good or bad it was, but that Cherokee never had so much as a hiccup during my decade of ownership.  If the Op doesn't want his I'll buy it off him.  I'm not so worried about a loss of 6 lbs.  As it is I can throw everything that'll fit into that airplane and still not overload it or get out of CG.

[carusoam]

Engine heat and anti-freeze...

 

MS is getting ready....   early this year!

-a-

[Shadrach]

On 7/27/2020 at 4:52 PM, tony said:

Well scratch that idea.  I think Chuck Ney Enterprises is out of business.  The phone has been disconnected and the domain is for sale.....

 

Chuck went west about six years ago.  I don't know what became of his STCs.