Rocket in landing incident at KHND.

[skykrawler]

Why do people insist on referring to the tubular frame as a ROLL CAGE?  Makes me wonder what else they 'get' incorrect.

[exM20K]

What is this?

[47U]

5 hours ago, skykrawler said:

Why do people insist on referring to the tubular frame as a ROLL CAGE?  Makes me wonder what else they 'get' incorrect.

Perhaps not purposefully designed with the intent to provide roll protection (who knows what Al was thinking at the time), certainly the attributes of the steel tube fuselage structure results in providing protection to occupants in the unfortunate circumstance that aircraft goes inverted.  Or penetrates trees or other obstacles on the way down.  Like a roll cage.

I don’t know what else they ‘get’ incorrect, but can’t you give them a pass on this one?

 

[bonal]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

Why do people insist on referring to the tubular frame as a ROLL CAGE?  Makes me wonder what else they 'get' incorrect.

Because it’s easier to say, amazing that there were no serious injuries considering the amount of force to do that kind of damage.

[0TreeLemur]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

What is this?

If that's part of a fence then it is a weird fence.  Fences don't usually have black painted metal ribs and short white cylinders.  Could it be part of an Instrument Landing System antenna?

[kortopates]

If that's part of a fence then it is a weird fence.  Fences don't usually have black painted metal ribs and short white cylinders.  Could it be part of an Instrument Landing System antenna?

I was thinking part of a lighting system too, ALS, runway light, taxiway light … ? But who knows?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cliffy]

It might be that on Thursday Las Vegas had a large weather event (Huge down burst winds) so bad that 2 Allegiant Airlines  Airbus airplanes diverted to here in St George UT.  Looking at the wet ground - in the summer- in Las Vegas- leads me to wonder if the weather at that exact time was a probable cause.  

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, skykrawler said:

Why do people insist on referring to the tubular frame as a ROLL CAGE?  Makes me wonder what else they 'get' incorrect.

Perhaps it was Mooney personnel that kept insisting on referring to the tubular frame as a roll cage:

 

 

Or maybe Flying Magazine picked up the idea of a roll frame when they toured the factory:

https://www.flyingmag.com/photos-mooney-factory-tour/

 
Or maybe Mooneyspace has been the culprit in the 300 times it's been mentioned on here:

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q="roll cage"&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy

 
 

Or heaven forbid . . .  maybe it was Al Mooney himself:

 

[Fly Boomer]

11 hours ago, NickG said:

But he’s definitely high and fast.

I think the ADSB data showed 102 on short final.  Seems fast.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Perhaps it was Mooney personnel that kept insisting on referring to the tubular frame as a roll cage:

 

 

Or maybe Flying Magazine picked up the idea of a roll frame when they toured the factory:

https://www.flyingmag.com/photos-mooney-factory-tour/

 
Or maybe Mooneyspace has been the culprit in the 300 times it's been mentioned on here:

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q="roll cage"&quick=1&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy

 
 

Or heaven forbid . . .  maybe it was Al Mooney himself:

 

Did they say "our roll cage - which was designed by Nascar..."?!!

[Schllc]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I think the ADSB data showed 102 on short final.  Seems fast.

It is absolutely faster that it should be but with an 8,000’ and 6,500’ runway, it is still very manageable.

[NickG]

41 minutes ago, Schllc said:

It is absolutely faster that it should be but with an 8,000’ and 6,500’ runway, it is still very manageable.

He was cleared into 35R which is the shorter 5000ft runway (the other 35R - 6500 ft)  is. A friend who saw the accident said it was a hard landing with bounce and porpoise, strike and total loss of control. Took them nearly 4 hours to get the plane off the runway. Apparently, at least 3 occupants, all transported by paramedics. Although I hear they're OK.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Did they say "our roll cage - which was designed by Nascar..."?!!

That has been dispelled by Bill Wheat years ago, but he still calls it a roll cage.

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

That has been dispelled by Bill Wheat years ago, but he still calls it a roll cage.

It was dispelled by Al Mooney himself - he wrote an autobiography that I read.  He designed the M20 himself on his kitchen table.

The first M20 prototype flew in 1953.  

[LANCECASPER]

23 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

It was dispelled by Al Mooney himself - he wrote an autobiography that I read.  He designed the M20 himself on his kitchen table.

The first M20 prototype flew in 1953.  

Yes, and some of his designs pre-date that by quite a bit.

 

[cliffy]

I don't think NASCAR was around in 1953  Where they?

[Hank]

36 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I don't think NASCAR was around in 1953  Where they?

People been running 'shine in fast cars since the 1902s . . . NASCAR just allowed them to go fast within rules and without fear of arrest. (c.f., Junior Johnson)

[NickG]

11 hours ago, cliffy said:

It might be that on Thursday Las Vegas had a large weather event (Huge down burst winds) so bad that 2 Allegiant Airlines  Airbus airplanes diverted to here in St George UT.  Looking at the wet ground - in the summer- in Las Vegas- leads me to wonder if the weather at that exact time was a probable cause.  

Nope. Weather was OK. We had a microburst the previous day that destroyed about 6 planes at the open tie down ramps. But weather not a factor on this day. As I mentioned, an eyewitness has the plane coming in hot, hit hard, bounce, porpoise, strike prop and lose all control.

[donkaye, MCFI]

2 hours ago, NickG said:

Nope. Weather was OK. We had a microburst the previous day that destroyed about 6 planes at the open tie down ramps. But weather not a factor on this day. As I mentioned, an eyewitness has the plane coming in hot, hit hard, bounce, porpoise, strike prop and lose all control.

If ever there was an airplane that needs a gentle touch on taxiing, takeoff, and landing, it's the Rocket.  I think the prop clearance is about 9".  They have been known to have a prop strike while taxiing.

[aviatoreb]

7 hours ago, cliffy said:

I don't think NASCAR was around in 1953  Where they?

I just looked it up - apparently NASCAR the organization started much earlier than I realized - but it grew out of classic boot leggers from the prohibition era 1920's running illegal adult beverages from the police in souped up street cars on streets (dirt roads!).  But surely in 1948 none of the modern car safety stuff was in place.  Just stock cars with souped up engines.  I read that roll cages became a NASCAR procedure in 1972 :

1948

 

DECEMBER 14, 1947 – Bill France Sr. organizes a meeting at the Streamline Hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida, to discuss the future of stock car racing. NASCAR, the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, is conceived. FEBRUARY 15, 1948 – NASCAR runs its first race in Daytona Beach at the beach road course.

 

[Jeff Uphoff]

On 7/4/2025 at 1:34 PM, DCarlton said:

I don't think that will ever fly again.  

An M20E co-owned by someone I know went off the side of a runway on landing recently and hit a taxiway sign. Damage appeared limited to the left wing between the fuel tank and pitot tube, both of which were missed. I put them in touch with Don Maxwell's shop, and Paul seemed confident he could repair it.

Didn't matter--despite the relatively minimal damage, their insurance company totaled it.  

--Up.

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

An M20E co-owned by someone I know went off the side of a runway on landing recently and hit a taxiway sign. Damage appeared limited to the left wing between the fuel tank and pitot tube, both of which were missed. I put them in touch with Don Maxwell's shop, and Paul seemed confident he could repair it.

Didn't matter--despite the relatively minimal damage, their insurance company totaled it.  

--Up.

In some cases it makes sense to buy it back from the insurance company and have it repaired rather than starting the whole process over of looking, buying, fixing squawks, upgrading, etc. 

[Flyler]

21 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

If that's part of a fence then it is a weird fence.  Fences don't usually have black painted metal ribs and short white cylinders.  Could it be part of an Instrument Landing System antenna?

Looks like the retractable step maybe?

Looking at the first image again... That isn't the step.  You can actually see it squished up under the body/wing.  Scale is off too.

[cliffy]

I'm wondering how the spinner got squashed so bad square on.  Head on with the ground?

I'm willing to bet that on most of the fleet - if the repairs exceed $20-30K the airframe is totaled.

Even with the elevated pricing we see now.

As I've said for some time- we have a shrinking fleet size because we kill'm faster than we make'm and we aren't making them anymore. Its no wonder no one wants to market new electronics to our shrinking fleet of possible purchasers

Add in the number of derelicts just sitting and rotting away on ramps all over the USA. 

Its really a shame but we do it to ourselves. 

Trying to support and antique (that can kill you) on a shoestring budget (CB) has never made sense to me. 

Enjoy them while you got them because they are going away eventually. 

There is/was a program by Mitsubishi to buy back old MU2s as they age out. That is why you don't see many of the 3 blade MU2s running around anymore. They want to get out of the MU2 business that they promised to support till the last one dies. They are just hurrying the last funeral. 

The world of GA aviation is changing.  Steel tube, sheet metal and rivets are going away with the new generations of pilots looking to composite and parachutes.  While we try to hang onto Model Ts they look forward to Ferraris. 

As an old TV program opened with- "As the world turns- so do the days of our lives!"

Reality hits hard but we can enjoy them while we have them. 

BTW- I once saw a 727 spun 180 degrees in its parking spot and a Citation Jet pushed on its tail in one of those big wind events at KLAS.

[cliffy]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I just looked it up - apparently NASCAR the organization started much earlier than I realized - but it grew out of classic boot leggers from the prohibition era 1920's running illegal adult beverages from the police in souped up street cars on streets (dirt roads!).  But surely in 1948 none of the modern car safety stuff was in place.  Just stock cars with souped up engines.  I read that roll cages became a NASCAR procedure in 1972 :

 

1948

 

DECEMBER 14, 1947 – Bill France Sr. organizes a meeting at the Streamline Hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida, to discuss the future of stock car racing. NASCAR, the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, is conceived. FEBRUARY 15, 1948 – NASCAR runs its first race in Daytona Beach at the beach road course.

 

WOW Didn't know it went that far back but when did roll cages come to the fore?

I did know it was shine runners at first though.