Midair collision with fatalities in Tucson

[Aaviationist]

On 2/19/2025 at 10:37 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Sadly I agree with you.  I had an experience last year where an older (and experienced) CFI was taking a student for an introductory flight at a pretty busy uncontrolled field.  I happened to be on final after a 4 hour xc with my whole family onboard.  She called that they were departing and I thought it would work ok, but then they just sat there on the runway.  They started rolling just as I started my go around and offset because we were in great formation.  I was slightly above her and they were in a C172, so with our relative hight vs wing position, neither of us had a good view of the other.  We deconflicted on the radio and went our separate ways, but I was a little mad and (next day) looked up the tail number, called the flight school owner and he apologized and let me talk to the cfi.  She first said, oh yeah, that was fine, don’t worry, I’ve flown a lot of formations.  Well shit, I have too, but they’ve generally been with people I knew and we had briefed everything and we generally didn’t do it that low or slow.  Second thing she said was, well my student just took forever to push up the power.  Well wtf?!  A student on an introductory flight?  That’s the cfi’s responsibility!  But I could tell she could care less.  She told me that we should all be able to go around at any time. Well I agree, but I don’t think forcing yourself in front of me and then telling me it’s not a big deal because you fly formation and I should be good at going around is actually a good idea.  The call ended with me feeling a little like your sentiment above…

That sounds like she was right. If you both had plenty of time in a normal situation and you weren’t cut off on a short final (sounds like that wasn’t the case) that runway is theirs until it isn’t. 
 

doesn’t sound like a big deal at all, and she’s right. You should always be ready to go around. 
 

Also, it’s up to the CFI to be PIC and to manage the flight as they see fit. If that includes letting the student control the throttle, that’s their decision, not yours. 
 

it seems to me like most of your problem in this scenario was you. Based on your report above, she have the right answers and it was you’re attitude and ego that was the problem. 

Edited Friday at 11:31 AM by Aaviationist

[Schllc]

On 2/21/2025 at 6:29 AM, Aaviationist said:

That sounds like she was right. If you both had plenty of time in a normal situation and you weren’t cut off on a short final (sounds like that wasn’t the case) that runway is theirs until it isn’t. 
 

doesn’t sound like a big deal at all, and she’s right. You should always be ready to go around. 
 

Also, it’s up to the CFI to be PIC and to manage the flight as they see fit. If that includes letting the student control the throttle, that’s their decision, not yours. 
 

it seems to me like most of your problem in this scenario was you. Based on your report above, she have the right answers and it was you’re attitude and ego that was the problem. 

There are rules, and then there is etiquette and common sense. 
They all affect safety, and at an uncontrolled filed are all equally important. 
not simply because of what is right or wrong, but because of the stakes, and the fact that one or both simply may not be aware of the hazard created by the lack of observance of any of the three. 
simply looking at the rules, without context and respect for the situation may win a legal argument, but that doesn’t make it right, and you know it,  it seems you just want to antagonize for the sake of conflict. 
If everyone exercised all three things at uncontrolled fields these things would likely never happen. 
When I was doing my first solo, I was in the pattern, making my calls. A plane came out of nowhere, not talking, flew parallel, over took me then in short final dove beneath and in front of me and landed, making me go around. 
he was lower, so technically he had the right of way. But was it the right thing to do?  
I suppose you would say yes,  but no one in my situation would ever agree. 
As long as people like you take that attitude things will never change. 

[Aaviationist]

22 minutes ago, Schllc said:

There are rules, and then there is etiquette and common sense. 
They all affect safety, and at an uncontrolled filed are all equally important. 
not simply because of what is right or wrong, but because of the stakes, and the fact that one or both simply may not be aware of the hazard created by the lack of observance of any of the three. 
simply looking at the rules, without context and respect for the situation may win a legal argument, but that doesn’t make it right, and you know it,  it seems you just want to antagonize for the sake of conflict. 
If everyone exercised all three things at uncontrolled fields these things would likely never happen. 
When I was doing my first solo, I was in the pattern, making my calls. A plane came out of nowhere, not talking, flew parallel, over took me then in short final do e beneath and in front of me and landed, making me go around. 
he was lower, so technically he had the right of way. But was it the right thing to do?  
I suppose you would say yes,  but no one in my situation would ever agree. 
As long as people like you take that attitude things will never change. 

That’s a very different scenario and you know it. 
 

someone taking too long on the runway and you taking the time out of yours and their day to reprimand them for it, when they had perfectly legitimate reasons, is not the same as the scenario you just laid out.   Especially at an untowered field you need to work together with people who have different initiatives than your own. One not more important than the other unless in extenuating circumstances. 
 

in a public airport everyone has their own equal set of rights. Someone taking the time they need to accomplish their task safely and effectively on the runway is not outside of those rights, especially when it comes to training. 
 

a go around is not and should not be a big deal. It’s a normal part of flying at an untowered airport. 

Edited Friday at 01:15 PM by Aaviationist

[N201MKTurbo]

It is hard to imagine why someone would delay on the runway. I was taught at an uncontrolled field that you don't take the runway until you are ready to take off. If nothing else you have a much better view of what's going on at the hold short line than you do on the runway.

[Aaviationist]

12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is hard to imagine why someone would delay on the runway. I was taught at an uncontrolled field that you don't take the runway until you are ready to take off. If nothing else you have a much better view of what's going on at the hold short line than you do on the runway.

According to that story they were ready to take off. It was a CFI with a student. It’s reasonable to believe the student, on their first flight, is likely to take a bit more time. 
 

I understand the average age range of this page. But at some point, you were a student too. 
 

Mooneyspace has a reputation, and not a good one. It’s obvious that’s true in cyber world, but you can’t be this arrogant and impulsive in the real world too can you?

Edited Friday at 01:46 PM by Aaviationist

[N201MKTurbo]

I will be working with someone from the flight school tomorrow. Maybe I can get more details.

[Aaviationist]

There are a lot of people who prefer to spool the engines up (especially with turbo props) on the runway before releasing the brakes. It’s not that abnormal of a procedure to take the runway and take a pause before starting the roll. Especially if it’s a short field, that’s the normal procedure…

 

taking a few extra moments on the runway should not result in receiving a phone call in any scenario. 
 

in that scenario when you go around, you should expect 2 airplanes to be in the air. Again not abnormal. The airplane going around offsets to a safe distance (the normal procedure) and the world moves on. 

Edited Friday at 03:22 PM by Aaviationist

[Yetti]

There is never a good ending when someone starts asserting their "rights".   In motorcyles and bicycles I may have the right to pass in front of a car.   But I know if I am in front of a car the car can hit me.  So I always try to pass behind cars, which includes waving them on.   Same with airplanes.   If you never put yourself in a place where the other plane can hit you,  you won't get hit.    Same with a table saw.  Don't ever put a body part in line with the blade.  and you will not get cut or have wood hit you.

In this case the Lancair pilot and passenger put themselves in a place that they could be hit, and they  are now dead.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

That sounds like she was right. If you both had plenty of time in a normal situation and you weren’t cut off on a short final (sounds like that wasn’t the case) that runway is theirs until it isn’t. 
 

doesn’t sound like a big deal at all, and she’s right. You should always be ready to go around. 
 

Also, it’s up to the CFI to be PIC and to manage the flight as they see fit. If that includes letting the student control the throttle, that’s their decision, not yours. 
 

it seems to me like most of your problem in this scenario was you. Based on your report above, she have the right answers and it was you’re attitude and ego that was the problem. 

I appreciate your concern and feedback.  Thank you so much for your time and thoughtful insight.

[Aaviationist]

15 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I appreciate your concern and feedback.  Thank you so much for your time and thoughtful insight.

No problem. 

[Shadrach]

On 2/19/2025 at 10:03 PM, IvanP said:

Crap, yet another reason for the masses and hysterical media to scream that GA should be banned. 

There were actually pundits on X calling for the Sec of Transportation to travel to Tuscon and make a statement.

[N201MKTurbo]

It's not like this is the first high wing low wing takeoff and landing accident. They seem to happen every few years. They should dust off the safety briefings from the last time it happened and send them out again.

This accident required a failure of situational awareness with both planes. They both should have known the other was there. Too bad we don't have the radio recordings. 

It seems like the LiveATC folks could put receivers at uncontrolled airports, especially busy ones like Avra Valley.

[Schllc]

6 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

That’s a very different scenario and you know it. 
 

someone taking too long on the runway and you taking the time out of yours and their day to reprimand them for it, when they had perfectly legitimate reasons, is not the same as the scenario you just laid out.   Especially at an untowered field you need to work together with people who have different initiatives than your own. One not more important than the other unless in extenuating circumstances. 
 

in a public airport everyone has their own equal set of rights. Someone taking the time they need to accomplish their task safely and effectively on the runway is not outside of those rights, especially when it comes to training. 
 

a go around is not and should not be a big deal. It’s a normal part of flying at an untowered airport. 

Of course it is a different scenario, but legally he had the right to land in front of me because he was lower, and he would probably say he did a wider pattern and never saw me, so if someone argued his case with simply the "rules", there would be no foul right?  

This is the part that is the same with these two scenarios, as well as most conflicts at uncontrolled fields.  You must be aware of the rules, display etiquette, and practice common sense.  If any of these three are absent, bad things happen.

 

[Aaviationist]

29 minutes ago, Schllc said:

Of course it is a different scenario, but legally he had the right to land in front of me because he was lower, and he would probably say he did a wider pattern and never saw me, so if someone argued his case with simply the "rules", there would be no foul right?  

This is the part that is the same with these two scenarios, as well as most conflicts at uncontrolled fields.  You must be aware of the rules, display etiquette, and practice common sense.  If any of these three are absent, bad things happen.

 

Again, etiquette would be to not call the flight school and reprimand a flight instructor because they took to long on the runway causing you to go around, and tell them how to conduct their instruction. 
 

etiquette WOULD be to go around, try again, park your airplane, and go about your business. 

Edited Friday at 08:23 PM by Aaviationist

[Utah20Gflyer]

7 minutes ago, Aaviationist said:

Again, etiquette would be to not call the flight school and reprimand a flight instructor because they took to long on the runway causing you to go around, and tell them how to conduct their instruction. 
 

etiquette WOULD be to go around, try again, park your airplane, and go about your business. 

Seems to me that calling and discussing an issue is perfectly good etiquette.  The flight school is free to disagree and say why what they did was perfectly acceptable.   Seems like a lot of our problems are a lack of communication and therefore additional communication would be helpful.   
 

 

[Aaviationist]

3 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Seems to me that calling and discussing an issue is perfectly good etiquette.  The flight school is free to disagree and say why what they did was perfectly acceptable.   Seems like a lot of our problems are a lack of communication and therefore additional communication would be helpful.   
 

 

Doesn’t sound like we read the same post….

[PeteMc]

8 hours ago, Schllc said:

A plane came out of nowhere, not talking, flew parallel, over took me then in short final do e beneath and in front of me and landed, making me go around. 
he was lower, so technically he had the right of way. But was it the right thing to do?  

Actually no, they did not have the Right of Way.  FAA even calls this out that someone can't try to descend to claim they're lower when they should be following the aircraft already in the pattern.  And not only were you in the pattern, it sounds like you turned Final and were #1 for the Airport.   But the biggie on this was that they dove beneath you and then landed in front of you.  I'm all for talking out little mishaps on the ramp, but that one would have gotten a call to the FSDO or the 800#.

Your single phone call may not result in anything happening.   But if they did this to you, they could have done it to a number of other people.  So if you phone in the issue and they keep getting other calls, THEN it may result in some much needed action.  

 

[Aaviationist]

6 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Actually no, they did not have the Right of Way.  FAA even calls this out that someone can't try to descend to claim they're lower when they should be following the aircraft already in the pattern.  And not only were you in the pattern, it sounds like you turned Final and were #1 for the Airport.   But the biggie on this was that they dove beneath you and then landed in front of you.  I'm all for talking out little mishaps on the ramp, but that one would have gotten a call to the FSDO or the 800#.

Your single phone call may not result in anything happening.   But if they did this to you, they could have done it to a number of other people.  So if you phone in the issue and they keep getting other calls, THEN it may result in some much needed action.  

 

This was a different scenario than the poster who made the phone call to the CFI for her and her student “taking too long on the runway” 

[Schllc]

57 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Actually no, they did not have the Right of Way.  FAA even calls this out that someone can't try to descend to claim they're lower when they should be following the aircraft already in the pattern.  And not only were you in the pattern, it sounds like you turned Final and were #1 for the Airport.   But the biggie on this was that they dove beneath you and then landed in front of you.  I'm all for talking out little mishaps on the ramp, but that one would have gotten a call to the FSDO or the 800#.

Your single phone call may not result in anything happening.   But if they did this to you, they could have done it to a number of other people.  So if you phone in the issue and they keep getting other calls, THEN it may result in some much needed action.  

 

My point was he would have had his story, and I would have had mine. Such is the way of uncontrolled fields…. 
I do not believe he was in the right, I knew what he did was wrong on many levels.  This wasn’t even close to the worst experience I had.  
on the really bad one I called the FDSO and told him what happened. 
a crop duster rolled out of the tanker area while I was on short final and took off with a tail wind in the opposite direction I was landing.  I got close enough to see his face and he had to do a 90deg turn at about 50’ agl to miss me.  My whole family was in the plane. 
when the FAA interviewed the crop duster pilot he confirmed my story as what happened. 
then they called me back and said no one did anything wrong so no further action was required. 
I was livid, and said someone did something wrong because it was almost a midair collision, and if it was me fine, but I wanted to know.   He said it was uncontrolled and the crop duster didn’t have a radio so no one was wrong. 
BS, but that’s what you get in the wild Wild West. 

[PeteMc]

46 minutes ago, Aaviationist said:

This was a different scenario than the poster who made the phone call to the CFI for her and her student “taking too long on the runway” 

Umm...  I didn't quote anything about a the CFI [supposedly] taking too long.  

But on that different message you're quoting...  To bad the CFI didn't say "we'll be a minute on the Rwy" but other wise, it was their runway.  And it's not uncommon for a CFI to go over a few things while lined up on the Rwy with a new student. 

[Ragsf15e]

g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other  aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an  aircraft on final

[Aaviationist]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

Umm...  I didn't quote anything about a the CFI [supposedly] taking too long.  

But on that different message you're quoting...  To bad the CFI didn't say "we'll be a minute on the Rwy" but other wise, it was their runway.  And it's not uncommon for a CFI to go over a few things while lined up on the Rwy with a new student. 

We’re saying the same thing. 

[Schllc]

22 hours ago, Yetti said:

There is never a good ending when someone starts asserting their "rights"

In college I commuted by bicycle everywhere for 3 years. I didn’t own a car and worked full time while in school. I rode several hundred miles a week.  
This was all a topic of debate when my fellow riders would complain about cars. 
I was hit three times in those three years, fortunately never serious, only one of them even caused a fall.  I learned very quickly that your “right of way” doesn’t do much for you under the car. 
you must be vigilant and defensive at all times because people just do not see you. 
this is the same attitude I have at uncontrolled fields. I don’t think there are many out there intentionally trying to break rules or put people at risk, but you better just expect it, because lack of intent doesn’t make it any less dangerous. 

[red2000gt]

On 2/19/2025 at 9:37 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Sadly I agree with you.  I had an experience last year where an older (and experienced) CFI was taking a student for an introductory flight at a pretty busy uncontrolled field.  I happened to be on final after a 4 hour xc with my whole family onboard.  She called that they were departing and I thought it would work ok, but then they just sat there on the runway.  They started rolling just as I started my go around and offset because we were in great formation.  I was slightly above her and they were in a C172, so with our relative hight vs wing position, neither of us had a good view of the other.  We deconflicted on the radio and went our separate ways, but I was a little mad and (next day) looked up the tail number, called the flight school owner and he apologized and let me talk to the cfi.  She first said, oh yeah, that was fine, don’t worry, I’ve flown a lot of formations.  Well shit, I have too, but they’ve generally been with people I knew and we had briefed everything and we generally didn’t do it that low or slow.  Second thing she said was, well my student just took forever to push up the power.  Well wtf?!  A student on an introductory flight?  That’s the cfi’s responsibility!  But I could tell she could care less.  She told me that we should all be able to go around at any time. Well I agree, but I don’t think forcing yourself in front of me and then telling me it’s not a big deal because you fly formation and I should be good at going around is actually a good idea.  The call ended with me feeling a little like your sentiment above…

That is crazy. Never had she thought hey since I know this guy is going around we will give way and leave some spacing so we can at least see them. My instructors would always get on to me, “don’t roll on to the runway unless you’re ready to take off! For God’s sake don’t pull out and sit there you get us all killed!” I only had to be told once, but it was drilled into my head until I soloed and they felt I got the point. That and being vigilant with traffic calls and scanning for traffic. The side step probably saved your life as she seemed like an oblivious idiot. Probably a low time instructor.
 

I had one giving me complex training in a retractable arrow and went to land at an uncontrolled field and went to put the gear down and only one green light not three. She panicked and didn’t know what to do. I pulled the POH/check list and said here you go emergency procedures are in here. I also said after she got on her cell phone that we should probably divert back to the airport we took off from and do a low pass by the tower. Fortunately, unlike Maverick, the pattern wasn’t full. We made several passes and verified the gear was down. Landed uneventful and turn out is was just a bad limit switch on the gear. Let’s just say I never flew with her again. I should have known she was making comments about not liking retractable gears. Good lord and she was supposed to be headed to fly for a major airline.

No common sense. Not to say I didn’t mess up early on and at a controlled airport landed on 17R instead of 17L. Fortunately there wasn’t too many people flying that day and they weren’t landing two at once on the parallel runways. I repeated back what I heard and they didn’t correct me so we both made mistakes. Good lesson to be very vigilant to listen write down what you can and repeat and get positive assurance. I think that training plane’s radio and the loaner headset I used at the time was terrible and made it hard to hear.

[Yetti]

Consider for a moment that there is no right and wrong.    There is only Alive and Dead.     Fly like that.