Unusual gear up at KGZL OK - M20K

[Mooney in Oz]

Maybe an engine or other problem following power application? 

"the pilot attempted a go-around. The pilot pulled the gear up, then decided to land but the gear did not fully extend.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/463977

[dwanzor]

1 hour ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Maybe an engine or other problem following power application? 

"the pilot attempted a go-around. The pilot pulled the gear up, then decided to land but the gear did not fully extend.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/463977

From looking at flight tracking data, it looks like the pilot came in to land, then went around and did a full lap in the pattern prior to landing again. This doesn't completely align with the description of the incident from the link, so it's hard to say what might have happened. 

[1980Mooney]

6 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Maybe an engine or other problem following power application? 

"the pilot attempted a go-around. The pilot pulled the gear up, then decided to land but the gear did not fully extend.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/463977

 

4 hours ago, dwanzor said:

From looking at flight tracking data, it looks like the pilot came in to land, then went around and did a full lap in the pattern prior to landing again. This doesn't completely align with the description of the incident from the link, so it's hard to say what might have happened. 

Unfortunate. If it was a clean gear- up landing, that is usually a straightforward, albeit expensive, repair.  If, as the Incident Report implies, the landing gear were in some degree of extension when he geared it into the runway, that will be much more expensive.

Fairly new owner - registered April 25, 2024. 

• Recent Ad shows that the Annual was completed March 2024 so the plane was definitely sold after March. Although FAA registration updates lagged during Covid they seem to be timely now.  https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/232373995/n1167y-1982-mooney-m20k-231
• Database does not show that the new (incident) owner owned any other plane prior to this K.

Owner may be newly minted or low time pilot - FAA Airman shows recent Private issuance date in May 2023.  No Instrument.   Some of his earlier flights seem to look like training/practice flights/approaches, etc.  Example: https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N1167Y/history/20240928/0251Z/KEQA/KEQA

Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT  
Date of Issue: 5/21/2023

Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
  AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

14 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Unfortunate. If it was a clean gear- up landing, that is usually a straightforward, albeit expensive, repair.  If, as the Incident Report implies, the landing gear were in some degree of extension when he geared it into the runway, that will be much more expensive.

I am curious as to why you believe some degree of gear extension gear up landing would be much more expensive?   

[AJ88V]

So sorry to see this.  231 is an awfully nice plane.  All our rates go up when something like this happens.  Really sucks for the newly rated pilot - whether his fault or not  (probably is) - and sucks for all of us.

[AJ88V]

35 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

I am curious as to why you believe some degree of gear extension gear up landing would be much more expensive?   

Gear up most likely takes out the engine and prop ($60K), but the plane slides on it's belly, so most likely the skins, antenna and patch work if it was otherwise a good landing Gear itself is protected as is the wing and most of the fuselage (not too bad).

Partially deployed gear could cause gear damage running up into the wing, leading to a total loss of aircraft.  Could also spin the aircraft, damaging wing and the whole fuselage.

[MooneyMitch]

50 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

Gear up most likely takes out the engine and prop ($60K), but the plane slides on it's belly, so most likely the skins, antenna and patch work if it was otherwise a good landing Gear itself is protected as is the wing and most of the fuselage (not too bad).

Partially deployed gear could cause gear damage running up into the wing, leading to a total loss of aircraft.  Could also spin the aircraft, damaging wing and the whole fuselage.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

My experience with mechanically induced partial gear extension gear up landing in my Mooney way back in 1988 on hard surface runway...............upon  touchdown, gear folded back up into wheel wells.  Yes, the usual damage resulted.  Skins, beacon, replace one flap hinge, engine tear down, one propeller blade repair.  Fast stopping[approximately 150 feet] on runway in a straight trajectory. 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I am curious as to why you believe some degree of gear extension gear up landing would be much more expensive?   

 

1 hour ago, AJ88V said:

Gear up most likely takes out the engine and prop ($60K), but the plane slides on it's belly, so most likely the skins, antenna and patch work if it was otherwise a good landing Gear itself is protected as is the wing and most of the fuselage (not too bad).

Partially deployed gear could cause gear damage running up into the wing, leading to a total loss of aircraft.  Could also spin the aircraft, damaging wing and the whole fuselage.

 

23 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

My experience with mechanically induced partial gear extension gear up landing in my Mooney way back in 1988 on hard surface runway...............upon  touchdown, gear folded back up into wheel wells.  Yes, the usual damage resulted.  Skins, beacon, replace one flap hinge, engine tear down, one propeller blade repair.  Fast stopping[approximately 150 feet] on runway in a straight trajectory. 

In your case it sounds like you experienced a partial J-bar gear-up.  I suspect that your gear was mostly closed and everything closed (folded in) and J bar slammed down as you touched down.

This was a K with electric gear.  The incident report implies (may be in error) that the gear was in the process of extension when the plane touched down on the runway.  That would forcefully fold the main gear in and the nose gear in while the Eaton gear motor was extending trying to push them out.  Everything will be bent or broken - turnbuckles, the tubular rods, the gear motor, the mounting brackets.

[Pinecone]

And gear doors.

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

In your case it sounds like you experienced a partial J-bar gear-up.  I suspect that your gear was mostly closed and everything closed (folded in) and J bar slammed down as you touched down.

This was a K with electric gear.  The incident report implies (may be in error) that the gear was in the process of extension when the plane touched down on the runway.  That would forcefully fold the main gear in and the nose gear in while the Eaton gear motor was extending trying to push them out.  Everything will be bent or broken - turnbuckles, the tubular rods, the gear motor, the mounting brackets.

Nope, my F was electric gear.  With your description of the events with the K, I certainly understand how things were bent and broken.

I was fortunate that my gear linkage had become disconnect where the motor worn drive is connected to all the tubes and such.  So, all my tubes, rods, motor, etc. were spared upon wheels folding into the wells on touchdown..............no resistance whatsoever. 

 

I do hope all goes well for the K and its owner. 

[Flyler]

I had a gear collapse on landing in September 2024.  Prop strike, exhaust squished, lower cowling scratched up, cowl flaps, nose gear doors, nose retract rods, belly damage, right wing skin damage, right retract rod in belly bent, right flap hinge, probably the flap too, wing tip fairing.  Landed softly and gear unlocked at about 55mph.  Slid down asphalt and then did a little twist off into the grass, I believe due to the difference in drag of the fixed step/wing on the right side, and left main gear remaining down and rolling.  Not sure if it matters regarding damaged components, but Dukes electric actuator was fully down and sitting on the limit switch.  No visual damage to the gear motor, but not sure.  Quote was for about $90k with IRAN only, probably optimistic at that.

Of course the engine IRAN and prop is a huge chunk of the cost.  There's a lot of labor in reskinning the wing too.  I think a "clean" gear up where the wings don't hit is probably repairable.  Collateral damage from gear collapse or partial collapse can push it over the line.  I'm thinking if just the nosewheel collapses its probably not an insurance total.

It's just really sad as if you look at the plane, its all pretty minor looking damage with a huge pricetag. 

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT  
Date of Issue: 5/21/2023

Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
  AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

That Date of Issue is whenever they last sent a physical card.  Mine is off by about 40 years.  Could be a newly minted pilot, but you can't tell by looking at that date.  Crackerjack government IT workers.

[Aaviationist]

7 hours ago, AJ88V said:

So sorry to see this.  231 is an awfully nice plane.  All our rates go up when something like this happens.  Really sucks for the newly rated pilot - whether his fault or not  (probably is) - and sucks for all of us.

This will not affect your rate in any way whatsoever. It has no affect on you financially personally or otherwise. 

Edited December 5 by Aaviationist

[kortopates]

I had a gear collapse on landing in September 2024.  Prop strike, exhaust squished, lower cowling scratched up, cowl flaps, nose gear doors, nose retract rods, belly damage, right wing skin damage, right retract rod in belly bent, right flap hinge, probably the flap too, wing tip fairing.  Landed softly and gear unlocked at about 55mph.  Slid down asphalt and then did a little twist off into the grass, I believe due to the difference in drag of the fixed step/wing on the right side, and left main gear remaining down and rolling.  Not sure if it matters regarding damaged components, but Dukes electric actuator was fully down and sitting on the limit switch.  No visual damage to the gear motor, but not sure.  Quote was for about $90k with IRAN only, probably optimistic at that.
Of course the engine IRAN and prop is a huge chunk of the cost.  There's a lot of labor in reskinning the wing too.  I think a "clean" gear up where the wings don't hit is probably repairable.  Collateral damage from gear collapse or partial collapse can push it over the line.  I'm thinking if just the nosewheel collapses its probably not an insurance total.
It's just really sad as if you look at the plane, its all pretty minor looking damage with a huge pricetag. 

Ouch! sorry to hear that.
I don’t know what model it was but it always comes down to insured hull value. Insurance won’t pay out more than about 70% of hull value for repairs since if they total it the average salvage value is about 30% of hull value that they’ll recoup.


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[AJ88V]

6 hours ago, Aaviationist said:

This will not affect your rate in any way whatsoever. It has no affect on you financially personally or otherwise. 

Accidents do impact actuarial rates across the board for Make and Model.

You are correct that this individual accident won’t directly affect my rates, but collectively more Mooney accidents do raise rates for Mooneys. My regrets for the imprecise language.

[Echo]

On 12/3/2024 at 7:32 PM, 1980Mooney said:

 

Unfortunate. If it was a clean gear- up landing, that is usually a straightforward, albeit expensive, repair.  If, as the Incident Report implies, the landing gear were in some degree of extension when he geared it into the runway, that will be much more expensive.

Fairly new owner - registered April 25, 2024. 

• Recent Ad shows that the Annual was completed March 2024 so the plane was definitely sold after March. Although FAA registration updates lagged during Covid they seem to be timely now.  https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/232373995/n1167y-1982-mooney-m20k-231
• Database does not show that the new (incident) owner owned any other plane prior to this K.

Owner may be newly minted or low time pilot - FAA Airman shows recent Private issuance date in May 2023.  No Instrument.   Some of his earlier flights seem to look like training/practice flights/approaches, etc.  Example: https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N1167Y/history/20240928/0251Z/KEQA/KEQA

Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT  
Date of Issue: 5/21/2023

Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
  AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND

 

 

That "Date of Issue" does NOT mean that is when someone first became a Private Pilot.  I had my SS# on my initial ticket so changed after a bunch of years.  Yes, he may be knew, but maybe not...I understand you did say "may be"  

[Echo]

Literally someone on this site in another thread said "gear alerts are a crutch"...I wince a LOT more at that than a quip that pilot induced gear ups cause increased insurance rates (which they do collectively).  To state otherwise is simply not accurate.  To add insult to injury also may NOT be a great way to go (calling out a fellow aviator after a self inflicted incident)

[Aerodon]

On 12/4/2024 at 4:00 PM, Aaviationist said:

This will not affect your rate in any way whatsoever. It has no affect on you financially personally or otherwise. 

Yeah, there are a couple of comments that are overused on the webb.  'that will buff out' and 'that will raise the rates' as though it's going to happen tomorrow.

I think you are correct - a certain number of wheels up claims are built into the premium for retractible planes already.  Over time, if the rolling average is going up or down, that will affect rates.  And then that sort of thing probably gets averaged over multiple types.

If you want to start thinking of what changes rates, I think there are a few things evolving in the market.  Some parts are unobtainable (gear motors, factory parts etc.).  Labor and skills to repair are definatley in short supply.  Parts and labour way more expensive than a few years ago.  This has lead to a thriving 'salvage market', so the simple sum of 'insured - salvage value' < 'parts + labour + uncertainty'  becomes a very easy decision tree.  And I think we all benefit - decent supply of used parts, quick payout of insured value vs, a year or two of downtime,  lower insurance premiums because the insured loss is lower on two fronts - availability  of parts and lower payouts after a good salvage sale.

I'm not saying it is simple, that's why we have actuaries.

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1980Mooney]

5 hours ago, Aerodon said:

If you want to start thinking of what changes rates, I think there are a few things evolving in the market.  Some parts are unobtainable (gear motors, factory parts etc.).  Labor and skills to repair are definatley in short supply.  Parts and labour way more expensive than a few years ago.  This has lead to a thriving 'salvage market', so the simple sum of 'insured - salvage value' < 'parts + labour + uncertainty'  becomes a very easy decision tree.  And I think we all benefit - decent supply of used parts, quick payout of insured value vs, a year or two of downtime,  lower insurance premiums because the insured loss is lower on two fronts - availability  of parts and lower payouts after a good salvage sale.

You have it backwards and are arguing against your own logic. "and lower payouts after a good salvage sale." "Payouts" are to the Owner and are a function of Insured Hull Value..  Perhaps you mean "cost to insurer" - However the "good salvage value" is because the price of salvaged aircraft parts has been steadily increasing (not going down) which means higher cost for repairs and higher cost to Owners that don't have insurance coverage and higher cost to Insurance companies that are paying for repairs and as a result are passing it on to Owners by charging higher Insurance Premiums.

There are no lower insurance premiums.

And "salvage market" is a shrinking and consolidating market due to the shrinking fleet.  BAS has purchased its oldest competitor, White Industries and all the used parts inventory of Mooney specialist LASAR.   That means fewer options for us and less competition.  And less competition means higher prices.  Basic capitalist economics.

Edited Friday at 10:36 PM by 1980Mooney

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

And "salvage market" is a shrinking and consolidating market due to the shrinking fleet.  BAS has purchased its oldest competitor, White Industries and all the used parts inventory of Mooney specialist LASAR.   That means fewer options for us and less competition.  And less competition means higher prices.  Basic capitalist economics.

I have geckos that live in my hangar and eat the crickets and other bugs.    They're all named Gordon.

[MikeOH]

Hmm, human nature I guess...but I always found it amusing that when the other guy makes money, he's greedy, when you make money, it's a 'fair' wage.

[1980Mooney]

This picture of N1167Y was taken on December 8 and posted on the Facebook Mooney Forum.  Generally after a Mooney has a clean gear-up landing, they lift the plane and extend the gear.  This sad K likely has damage to the landing gear and mechanism if they are just leaving it sitting on its belly.