New PPL, considering M20F

[fsuflyer]

Hello - I'm new here and looking forward to connecting with fellow Mooney enthusiasts! I passed my Private checkride a couple days ago and am considering an M20F as a first plane. I have about 100 hours so was thinking of joining a local 172 club to build some hours prior to making the leap to a complex aircraft. What are the typical insurance requirements for a low time pilot to get insured on a M20F? Does my plan sound like a good idea? 

Edited November 9, 2024 by fsuflyer

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, fsuflyer said:

What are the typical insurance requirements for a low time pilot to get insured on a M20F? Does my plan sound like a good idea? 

The club would save you some money until you get a better idea what your total cost of ownership will be.  The TCO will likely be more than you think.  Better to sneak up on it, rather than the "sink or swim" approach.

[bigmo]

I'd start with a conversation with a couple of insurance brokers. A lot of underwriters will not carry high risk pilots - and the ones that do will demand a pretty high premium. Expect somewhere around $5K a year +/- until your total time goes up and your make & model get above 100. If you fly a lot, you could "take one for the team" for one year and then rates will come way down to something manageable. One item to ask your broker is if they can write you with Beacon on a 6 month plan. I believe Beacon is the only one doing this right now, but they prorate you on a year plan, but write a 6 month policy to let you get your complex & MM up north of 50ish hours. That can really shorten the initial insurance hit.

Mooneys are pretty darn easy to fly & land and while they are complex, there's nothing particularly complex about flying them. Unlike most trainers, you just need to fly them by the numbers. They don't tolerate deviations from the POH like Cessna & Piper trainers do. 

I own my F outright. I'd be much better off financially to be in a small member group ownership, but I'm at a point where I want to fly when I want to fly (keeping up with kids & grandkids). A clean F offers a lot for the money. Speed, efficiency, and relatively low cost of ownership.

There are LOTS of good brokers, but I have had great experience with Airspeed Insurance Agency, BWI, and Travers. Those are three great places to start.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’d work on getting your instrument rating, by the time you complete that you should be insurable.  

[dkkim73]

@fsuflyer First, congratulations! That's great. Don't let the "what's next" distract you from appreciating and enjoying your new rating. In my experience, keeping currency and building practical experience and exercising aeronautical decision-making is huge. I agree with the recommendation to immediately start on your instrument rating. You don't have to flog yourself through it, but it will focus your flying and lead naturally to all sorts of benefits. Or just go get some burgers for now. 

From your handle (profile doesn't list location) I'm thinking you're in Florida. So for plane choices a normally-aspirated and non-FIKI plane is reasonable, so an F could be a wonderful choice (I think, I haven't researched the earlier models extensively... someone else will weigh in authoritatively  ). 

There is a professional broker who's pretty helpful here @Parker_Woodruff, and lots of experience in this pathway. 

Within the last year or so there is a lot of good advice on early choices, instrument rating, etc. 

Quick thoughts for now... welcome to Mooneyspace! Take your time learning about all the cool options. From what I've seen, there are a lot of flight hours and lots of type experience on this board. 

D

[00-Negative]

I did this only one year ago.  Bought my M20e before i had my ppl. No one world insure me,  so i bought it without insurance. I paid $71k. I finished my ppl 1 month later and insured the plane with Avemco for $3k. I had approx 85hrs total time.  Requirement was 10hrs dual in my model.  So i paid a Mooney CFI  for the 10hrs & complex.  My renewal was a little better at $2900 d/t safety training throughout the year.  I look at it this way... if insurance rates are as much as a note on the same value plane,  it would be much smarter to take that money and just buy a backup plane. We're only talking $70-110k. We buy vehicles in this price range every 5 years that have basically no value at trade-in time.

[Echo]

Congrats on your PPL.  Enjoy that accomplishment.  I purchased my M20E with about 100 hours total time, but had my complex endorsement after flying a Piper Arrow.  An F is a great airplane.  So are C and E models.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

You'd spend more renting a complex plane to gain RG hours than you would just paying the higher premium for the first year.  We can get you covered in a Mooney as a brand new private pilot with one or two quality insurance companies.

[fsuflyer]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I 100% plan on becoming instrument rated but I want to take a little time to enjoy my time as a pilot outside of the training environment. I started my training in 2005 while in college, racked up about 50 hours in a 172 and finished with about 50 hours in a pa-28. I currently live in New England and my mission will be local + regional flying, no more than 300 nm trips. Ideally I'd like to do my instrument training in the Mooney. I'm thinking of spending the next 6-12 months building time/experience in a 172 while I dive deeper into "everything Mooney" and get a sense of what 100-150k will get me. Thanks again, I really look forward to learning from and connecting with this community. With that said, if anyone is located within striking distance of Rhode Island and is interested in having me in the right seat of your plane, let me know:) -Chris 

[Schllc]

I would keep the momentum you have with your ppl. You will need Tom”relearn” a it of things and go back into school mode.  In addition to the continuity, I am of the opinion that an IR should be mandatory for a ppl.  If you aren’t just bopping around on sunny days to sight see, and actually plan to use your plane for travel, the experience you gain there has a good chance of saving your life. It will also make you a much better pilot. 

[fsuflyer]

55 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I would keep the momentum you have with your ppl. You will need Tom”relearn” a it of things and go back into school mode.  In addition to the continuity, I am of the opinion that an IR should be mandatory for a ppl.  If you aren’t just bopping around on sunny days to sight see, and actually plan to use your plane for travel, the experience you gain there has a good chance of saving your life. It will also make you a much better pilot. 

I understand your view and don't disagree about the necessity of an instrument rating. Unfortunately I had a not so great experience with my flight school and ultimately I think having my own plane and an independent CFI is a better route given my options. 

[Bartman]

Buy the best M20 F that fits your budget, something ready to fly, not a project.  I did not regret that approach.

I flew VFR for the first 3 years, flying to destinations 2-3 hours away.  After a couple of times and being lucky enough to only scare the crap out of myself, I committed to the instrument rating.  IFR flying demands discipline and flying by the numbers, much like the Mooney, and I highly recommend getting your instrument rating in the Mooney rather than the 172.   I did not regret that.

Congratulations on your PPL !!!

 

[Schllc]

31 minutes ago, fsuflyer said:

I understand your view and don't disagree about the necessity of an instrument rating. Unfortunately I had a not so great experience with my flight school and ultimately I think having my own plane and an independent CFI is a better route given my options. 

Absolutely agree, and do the training in your own plane!

I bought my first ovation before I finished my ppl for the exact same reasons!  
I hired a private instructor to finish my ppl and went straight into my IR in my own plane. Best decision I ever made. 

[Echo]

Flying in a Mooney will ruin your 172, 180, Arrow experience.  At least it did for me.  I would wait and get your IFR in your Mooney should you choose to pursue it. I am still VFR after almost 1000 hours of primarily 2 to 2.5 hour flights in Midwest.  I have not once regretted NOT being a "better" pilot with attaining an instrument rating.  Have fun.  Fly safe.

[Hector]

2 hours ago, fsuflyer said:

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I 100% plan on becoming instrument rated but I want to take a little time to enjoy my time as a pilot outside of the training environment. I started my training in 2005 while in college, racked up about 50 hours in a 172 and finished with about 50 hours in a pa-28. I currently live in New England and my mission will be local + regional flying, no more than 300 nm trips. Ideally I'd like to do my instrument training in the Mooney. I'm thinking of spending the next 6-12 months building time/experience in a 172 while I dive deeper into "everything Mooney" and get a sense of what 100-150k will get me. Thanks again, I really look forward to learning from and connecting with this community. With that said, if anyone is located within striking distance of Rhode Island and is interested in having me in the right seat of your plane, let me know:) -Chris 

100-150K should get you a very nice F with upgraded panel and latest avionics.  I owned a C for 12 years or so but it had some limitations that an F or J  could overcome.  I found a really nice F and then made it even better by updating the avionics to the latest.  I have it insured for $120K and my insurance is due this December and I'll be paying $2300.  I am instrument rated and average around 90 hours/year.  I think a J may also be within your budget but I have not kept up with J prices so not sure what you can get for $150k which is the top of your range.  Given the choice between a really nice F with low time engine and latest avionics and auto pilot and a J that needs a lot of upgrades I would take the F all day.  I love my F.  I'll be retiring in 2 years and plan to take lots of trips all over the country and fly it for as long as I'm physically/mentally capable.  I agree with the others that if you are going to purchase a Mooney in the very near future then wait and get your instrument rating in your new plane. 

[DCarlton]

13 minutes ago, Hector said:

100-150K should get you a very nice F with upgraded panel and latest avionics.  I owned a C for 12 years or so but it had some limitations that an F or J  could overcome.  I found a really nice F and then made it even better by updating the avionics to the latest.  I have it insured for $120K and my insurance is due this December and I'll be paying $2300.  I am instrument rated and average around 90 hours/year.  I think a J may also be within your budget but I have not kept up with J prices so not sure what you can get for $150k which is the top of your range.  Given the choice between a really nice F with low time engine and latest avionics and auto pilot and a J that needs a lot of upgrades I would take the F all day.  I love my F.  I'll be retiring in 2 years and plan to take lots of trips all over the country and fly it for as long as I'm physically/mentally capable.  I agree with the others that if you are going to purchase a Mooney in the very near future then wait and get your instrument rating in your new plane. 

I've been needing someone to talk me in to keeping my F instead of upgrading to a J.  But now I have to spend more money on it.  ;>   

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I've been needing someone to talk me in to keeping my F instead of upgrading to a J.  But now I have to spend more money on it.  ;>   

I'm your huckleberry

I've been VERY happy with my F and see no reason to switch to a J.  I really don't see it as much of an upgrade and consider you ARE going to inherit issues; just a question of how much they are going to cost to address!  Not to mention the time, money, and hassle to sell your F and find and buy a J.  Spend on the one you're with and be happy!

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

I have not once regretted NOT being a "better" pilot with attaining an instrument rating.  Have fun.  Fly safe.

The absence of an IR doesn’t make anyone a “bad” pilot.  
It’s unfortunate that you interpreted it that way, because there was no malice intended. 
But it doesn’t change the fact, that the experience one gets during the training, would make any pilot better. 
I know I will always have places I could improve, and would hope we all feel that way. 

[Vance Harral]

6 hours ago, Echo said:

I have not once regretted NOT being a "better" pilot with attaining an instrument rating.

Most of the value in getting an instrument rating comes from developing the ability to easily and precisely control the airplane with less and less cognitive power, such that you have more and more cognitive power to tend to other things: reading charts, programming navigation, obtaining weather, interacting with ATC, scanning for traffic, etc.  Pilots who obtain an instrument rating get fairly good at this, at least at the time of their check ride (the skills lapse if you don't use them).

These skills certainly make one a better and safer pilot, but there are other ways to develop them without getting an instrument rating of course - mostly just a lot of cross-country flying with flight following.  The rating itself may not have much value to any particular individual - especially if they do most of their flying in a part of the country where the weather is not conducive to flying a piston single regardless of having the rating.

[DCarlton]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I'm your huckleberry

I've been VERY happy with my F and see no reason to switch to a J.  I really don't see it as much of an upgrade and consider you ARE going to inherit issues; just a question of how much they are going to cost to address!  Not to mention the time, money, and hassle to sell your F and find and buy a J.  Spend on the one you're with and be happy!

I know.  I know.  I could buy a C8 Corvette for the price difference and be even happier.  

[PeteMc]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I'm your huckleberry

"Huckleberry" is not usually something I hear from someone down in southern CA...  

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Most of the value in getting an instrument rating comes from developing the ability to easily and precisely control the airplane with less and less cognitive power, such that you have more and more cognitive power to tend to other things: reading charts, programming navigation, obtaining weather, interacting with ATC, scanning for traffic, etc.  Pilots who obtain an instrument rating get fairly good at this, at least at the time of their check ride (the skills lapse if you don't use them).

These skills certainly make one a better and safer pilot, but there are other ways to develop them without getting an instrument rating of course - mostly just a lot of cross-country flying with flight following.  The rating itself may not have much value to any particular individual - especially if they do most of their flying in a part of the country where the weather is not conducive to flying a piston single regardless of having the rating.

It's also just a different mindset to existing within the system, complementary to the VFR world and skillset. There are pilots who fly VFR only who are masterful in many areas (mountain flying comes to mind), but even a beginning IFR pilot in training develops awareness that complements what he or she already knows as a proficient beginning VFR pilot. 

It's kind of like learning a foreign language or (I would imagine) getting a law degree and never practicing. You "get" the framework and can muster up enough to get by where you need a few phrases. 

Most of us who fly IFR (and aspire to be better all the time) are VMC most of the time. 

OTOH there are people who fly mostly VFR and are hell-on-wheels in the backcountry, tailwheel, floats, etc. Lots of places to go with aviation. 

Instruments is useful for almost all of us who travel with any constraints, and fun for most regardless. 

D

[Echo]

My comment was made without malicious intent.  Your comment made me ponder.  My reply was post pondering.

[AJ88V]

First, congrats FSU!  If you're really looking at spending $100K - $150K, you should definitely be looking at the J model planes, the later the year the better.  They're faster, more efficient, roomier, run cooler, and are more modern.  There are lots of planes nicely equipped IFR in this price range.  I'm struggling right now between upgrading my panel or just selling my C model and buying a J model with the panel already done.

FWIW, the (really) short-bodies C, D, and E models make really great 2-person platforms.  With ~1000 lbs useful load, you can fly 4 seats full with lighter adults, but it is cramped.  That said, we made two vacation trips VA to FL with 4 seats and luggage just fine.

On 11/9/2024 at 6:35 PM, 00-Negative said:

I did this only one year ago.  Bought my M20e before i had my ppl. No one world insure me,  so i bought it without insurance. I paid $71k. I finished my ppl 1 month later and insured the plane with Avemco for $3k. I had approx 85hrs total time.  Requirement was 10hrs dual in my model.  So i paid a Mooney CFI  for the 10hrs & complex.  My renewal was a little better at $2900 d/t safety training throughout the year.  I look at it this way... if insurance rates are as much as a note on the same value plane,  it would be much smarter to take that money and just buy a backup plane. We're only talking $70-110k. We buy vehicles in this price range every 5 years that have basically no value at trade-in time.

Not to change gears too much, but the biggest purpose of insurance is to protect ALL your assets.  I think of it as "Go Away" money in case you actually hurt someone on the ground.  To achieve that, you need your airplane insurance to hit some minimum coverage and then get an umbrella policy to cover anything over that up to some reasonable amount consistent with your total net worth.  Some of your net worth is shielded, but you don't want them chewing you through the grinder with lawyers looking for a big payout.  Go-Away insurance keeps that from happening.

[MikeOH]

@AJ88V

I'm curious where you've found umbrella coverage for aviation.  My umbrella policy specifically EXCLUDES GA flying!

Please name the carrier as I'd love to have liability coverage above the aviation policy limit.