Well that was "fun"

[Fly Boomer]

On 9/6/2024 at 9:14 PM, vik said:

I had two Michelin tubes fail on me, few years back. One day I found one main gear flat. The air put in leaked out right away. The hissing sound was heard close to the valve steam. Examination showed that the valve steam almost separated due to the rotten rubber around it. I recently installed new tires and new tubes. The manufacturing date on the tube confirmed that it was about one year old.

Sure enough, I took apart the other two wheels to check. The other main one had the same problem and was ready to give up ghost air.   The manufacturing date indicated it was about 1.5 years old. The nose one was a different size (5x500) and did not show this problem, but I replaced it anyway. Chief Aircraft refused to exchange tubes under the warranty. Still keep the tubes as a souvenir.

Not surprising that I stay away from Michelin tires and tubes. I also had Michelin car tires develop a bulge on a side several times. But those are different tires and a different failure mode most likely. I stay away from Michelin tires. We are probably incompatible.  And I never purchased anything at Chief Aircraft again. Not saying that other distributors would honor the warranty. I only know that Chief Aircraft did not.

Vik

 

As you point out, there may not be any reason to compare car tires with airplane tires, but after two unhappy experiences with non-Michelin tires on cars, I have never used a non-Michelin tire again.  I have bought many sets of Michelin, and they always balance better than my non-Michelin tires did.  Plus, I have never had a flat.  Probably a million miles.

[Pinecone]

On 9/5/2024 at 10:24 AM, bigmo said:

I do want to get someone with a portable nitrogen setup and convert to nitrogen. SO much less impact due to weather changes. 

It is not the nitrogen that does that.  It is the lack of moisture.  Use one of the desiccant pig tails for painting.

Race cars use nitrogen because bottles are easier than compressors in the pits.

[Hank]

7 hours ago, Pinecone said:

It is not the nitrogen that does that.  It is the lack of moisture.  Use one of the desiccant pig tails for painting.

This is why I buy Air Stop tubes. I probably add air once or twice a year. 

[A64Pilot]

I like nitrogen, but being and old tech diver I put tri mix in my tires

I like 78/0/21  

Honestly the whole nitrogen thing in automobile and little airplane tires is silly. Nitrogen is preferred in Oleo struts because it has no moisture (corrosion) but in little airplanes it’s almost never used with seemingly no ill effects. Big airplanes often use it because of the pressures they are looking at. N2 bottles start at 3,000 PSI so if yiu need say 1650 to pre-charge an accumulator it’s easy with an N2 bottle, tougher with a compressor.

Other than wasting your money putting N2 in your tires doesn’t hurt anything though.

Edited September 9 by A64Pilot

[BlueSky247]

But, but....nitrogen particles are larger and therefore less prone to leak out! 

 

[MikeOH]

36 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

But, but....nitrogen particles are larger and therefore less prone to leak out! 

 

Yeah, here ya go: "The diameter of an O₂ molecule is 292 picometers, and that of N₂ is 300 picometers"

And, as I always tell the 'only nitrogen in my tires' crowd,...well, AIR is already nearly 80% nitrogen!

[phxcobraz]

Thankfully you got it off so it didn’t interfere with runway use, an easy fix and no other damage done. I was going to a fly-in a few weeks ago and a Long-EZ broke a nose gear after a flat and barely was able to move to the right of the runway. I was in downwind when he landed and circled a few times until a few guys were able to lift it up and walk it to a taxiway. Can’t do that with a Mooney. 

[N201MKTurbo]

19 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Yeah, here ya go: "The diameter of an O₂ molecule is 292 picometers, and that of N₂ is 300 picometers"

And, as I always tell the 'only nitrogen in my tires' crowd,...well, AIR is already nearly 80% nitrogen!

That's how oxygen concentrators work. Maybe they should use tires instead of molecular sieve.

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Yeah, here ya go: "The diameter of an O₂ molecule is 292 picometers, and that of N₂ is 300 picometers"

And, as I always tell the 'only nitrogen in my tires' crowd,...well, AIR is already nearly 80% nitrogen!

So fill with air, and if the smaller leaks out, then eventually you will have 100% N2.

 

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Yeah, here ya go: "The diameter of an O₂ molecule is 292 picometers, and that of N₂ is 300 picometers"

And, as I always tell the 'only nitrogen in my tires' crowd,...well, AIR is already nearly 80% nitrogen!

Just like he said: nitrogen molecules are bigger 

[bigmo]

The PRACTICAL reality to using N2 is that you don’t have to adjust tire pressures all year. Silly jokes aside, it’s far preferable to air. In quality tubes, it lasts me all season and stays +/- 1 psi period. In tubeless setups it never changes. Heck my last fill on my truck I didn’t touch it for 4 years. Temp swings from -45F to 115F (and the extremes that the road and friction add).

[MikeOH]

17 minutes ago, bigmo said:

The PRACTICAL reality to using N2 is that you don’t have to adjust tire pressures all year. Silly jokes aside, it’s far preferable to air. In quality tubes, it lasts me all season and stays +/- 1 psi period. In tubeless setups it never changes. Heck my last fill on my truck I didn’t touch it for 4 years. Temp swings from -45F to 115F (and the extremes that the road and friction add).

You do realize that both nitrogen and oxygen behave IDENTICALLY with temperature change?  They both behave as ideal gasses, as does air.

As far as 'lasting all season' with only a minor pressure change...well, my Air-Stop (quality tube) don't change either...and, they are filled with 100% AIR

Saving money is far more preferable to me!

[bigmo]

Not exactly. Very familiar with ideal gas law and Charles law. Again, not to turn this into a bicker fest - there's practical advantages to using N2 vs air. There's a reason that ALL military aircraft and vehicles use N2. A primary concern is corrosion, but a side benefit is better stability in temperature variation. I've not spent a ton of time around commercial airliners, but the ones I have been all used N2 as well.

Is air bad? Of course not. Is N2 better. Yes. 

[MikeOH]

47 minutes ago, bigmo said:

Not exactly. Very familiar with ideal gas law and Charles law. Again, not to turn this into a bicker fest - there's practical advantages to using N2 vs air. There's a reason that ALL military aircraft and vehicles use N2. A primary concern is corrosion, but a side benefit is better stability in temperature variation. I've not spent a ton of time around commercial airliners, but the ones I have been all used N2 as well.

Is air bad? Of course not. Is N2 better. Yes. 

Oh, let's continue...yes, at the temps and pressures we are talking air, nitrogen, oxygen all behave as ideal gasses; get to 100 atm and things change, but that's not the situation here.  No way nitrogen has 'better temperature stability' than air;  fill a tire with nitrogen and change temp and record the pressure change; do the same with air and there will be no difference.  I await your presentation of data backed by a reputable citation that proves otherwise.

As someone else pointed out, there is a convenience advantage for racing and likely military where you are not dependent on a compressor; a pressurized tank of nitrogen may be more convenient.  Also, see below, corrosion on steel rims if tubeless could be a concern, too.

The other issue is moisture which has two ramifications: 1) corrosion....can't say I've heard any issue with the inside of a rubber tire tube corroding, however and 2) tire imbalance from the moisture condensing out and freezing at altitude; airliner tires are higher pressure, hence the potential for a larger absolute amount of moisture due to more gas, and higher rotational speed upon landing exacerbating any imbalance.  Nitrogen solves those issues (not sure, but airline wheels may be tubeless and moisture on magnesium or aluminum wheels would NOT be ideal).

So, no, for tubed GA tires I maintain that N2 is no better than air.

[Pinecone]

Also, the only way to get nothing but N2 is to put in two valve stems, so you can purge the tire.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Also, the only way to get nothing but N2 is to put in two valve stems, so you can purge the tire.

Yeah, gonna be hard to do on a tube if it's been inflated before and in the assembly already.

The main culprit for causing excessive pressure changes due to temperature is moisture.   N2 is generally dry, but if the air you put in the tire is dry, too, then there's not much difference.   There was a period of time when some of the guys I raced with tried N2, but in AZ the air is dry enough, anyway, and it's not hard to put a drier on your compressor to take out any remaining moisture if you care.   After a bit of experimenting I didn't know anybody in the paddock that still ran N2.   Everybody just went back to air.   A bunch of people ran wheels with the dual valve stems, but just used air.

[gwav8or]

Just posting an update to my original post.

I received the new tire and tube on Monday.  Mechanic took care of it on Tuesday.  There was a tiny pinhole in the tube.  Not sure where the hole came from.  The tube did not appear to have been pinched.

[takair]

17 hours ago, gwav8or said:

Just posting an update to my original post.

I received the new tire and tube on Monday.  Mechanic took care of it on Tuesday.  There was a tiny pinhole in the tube.  Not sure where the hole came from.  The tube did not appear to have been pinched.

Consider contacting the manufacturer and see if you can get warranty.  I want to say Spruce managed it for me last time.  It is really frustrating that this continues to happen…

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, takair said:

Consider contacting the manufacturer and see if you can get warranty.  I want to say Spruce managed it for me last time.  It is really frustrating that this continues to happen…

Remind me what brand tubes you guys are using?

[MikeOH]

Michelin Airstop tubes.  (FYI I use Goodyear FliteCustom II tires)

[Fly Boomer]

14 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Michelin Airstop tubes.  (FYI I use Goodyear FliteCustom II tires)

Hmm.  I thought the Airstop was supposed to be the best.  Disappointing to hear about your problems with that tube.

[EricJ]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:47 PM, bigmo said:

Not exactly. Very familiar with ideal gas law and Charles law. Again, not to turn this into a bicker fest - there's practical advantages to using N2 vs air. There's a reason that ALL military aircraft and vehicles use N2. A primary concern is corrosion, but a side benefit is better stability in temperature variation. I've not spent a ton of time around commercial airliners, but the ones I have been all used N2 as well.

Is air bad? Of course not. Is N2 better. Yes. 

The main reason the airlines use N2 is so that a brake fire doesn't get fed when the tire fuse plugs blow.    I think that's one reason the military uses it as well.

[MikeOH]

59 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Hmm.  I thought the Airstop was supposed to be the best.  Disappointing to hear about your problems with that tube.

@Fly Boomer

NO, I have had ZERO problems with the tube or the tires.  I go over 6 mos. without the need to add any air.

 I think you are confusing me with someone that posted problems with Michelin tires!

[Fly Boomer]

46 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@Fly Boomer

NO, I have had ZERO problems with the tube or the tires.  I go over 6 mos. without the need to add any air.

 I think you are confusing me with someone that posted problems with Michelin tires!

Good to hear.  Thanks for getting me back on course!

[Pinecone]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:09 PM, EricJ said:

The main reason the airlines use N2 is so that a brake fire doesn't get fed when the tire fuse plugs blow.    I think that's one reason the military uses it as well.

So the air coming out of the wheel is different from ALL the air around the LG?