231 crash on takeoff at 47N

[flyboy0681]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

I can only see it making a significant difference after major invasive maintenance and/or annuals. Not on any random flight. The vast majority of crashes are pilot error. But that said, not enough pilots do a RTS - Return to Service flight over a field before embarking on a long IFR or VFR flight.

Perhaps I should have worded it a bit differently: "What percentage of maintenance related incidents that led to an airborne incident could have been avoided..".  The low hanging fruit could be (as is the subject of this thread) loose ignition wires or magneto. Other items that could be eyeballed are frayed cables (ie mixture) or leaking hoses.

[Fly Boomer]

54 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I'm just curious of what your thoughts are about the following. What percentage of maintenance related crashes do you feel could have been avoided if the cowl opened up so that we could gain easy access?

I would expect that if someone isn't interested in looking under the cowl with the design we currently have, they won't be interested if it was made easier.  I know guys who don't sump their tanks because they have never found water.  Just stick the little thingy in the hole, and see what comes out.  Could it be any easier?

[flyboy0681]

18 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I would expect that if someone isn't interested in looking under the cowl with the design we currently have, they won't be interested if it was made easier. 

Not true. Before the Mooney, I flew Arrow's for years and the one thing that I had to get used to when transitioning was not being able to open each side of the cowl. Add to the mix that the current Mooney cowl takes two people to install (at least for me).

[201Mooniac]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Not true. Before the Mooney, I flew Arrow's for years and the one thing that I had to get used to when transitioning was not being able to open each side of the cowl. Add to the mix that the current Mooney cowl takes two people to install (at least for me).

On my J  have the LoPresti cowl and have an inspection door on both sides that spans the baffling so I can see both in front and behind the baffling at pre-flight.  It really helps but there is still just so much you can see.  I find I can remove and replace the top cowling by myself with little trouble but I don't recall if it was like that with the original cowling.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Not true. Before the Mooney, I flew Arrow's for years and the one thing that I had to get used to when transitioning was not being able to open each side of the cowl. Add to the mix that the current Mooney cowl takes two people to install (at least for me).

I agree that access is suboptimal.  The answer to your questing is that additional squawks would definitely be caught. How many likely depends on the quality of your maintenance.  In 20 years of Mooney flying, I can name one issue (already mentioned) that likely would have been mitigated with quicker cowl access.

[Hank]

29 minutes ago, Aviationist said:

It didn’t and it wasn’t. Losing 1 plug WILL NOT cause this. 

Maybe nit, but replacing one lead from magneto to one plug corrected the situation. Guess then other problems just fixed themselves?

[skykrawler]

The original accident aircraft (of this topic) was a K model which is a six cylinder Continental - so even less percentage of power is lost if a single plug wire is disconnected.

It is a fact that if the ignition switch is not returned to the both position and the engine is running on a single magneto that the climb rate will likely be half of normal.  This seems to be a likely explanation.

[jlunseth]

I hate to say it, but I have developed a very jaded view of plane mechanics after several have tried to kill me. I tried a few at my home base, KFCM, when I first owned the airplane. In retrospect, diagnoses were generally bad because they did not know the Mooney aircraft, but that is not what got my attention. The first in-air emergency happened when I detected a new drop of oil on the nose gear prior to a flight over Lake Michigan. I had the plane rolled into a local mechanics shop and told them there was a new oil drip and I was going over Lake Michigan, please make sure it is ok. They diagnosed it as a leaking quick drain, which was right, but they told me quick drains just do that, it would not be a problem. Turned out a sliver of plastic had gotten into the seal and we lost all oil at 19k, in the dark, over Canada, about to be blown over Lake Huron by the strong tailwinds. An emergency descent to London, ONT with the engine idled followed, and it worked out. On another occasion I had a different mechanic at my home field replace a failed alternator coupler. They left a bushing out (didn’t have the Mooney shop manual). The coupler fell off into the running engine. Another emergency descent to landing that worked out. Luckily, in the aftermath, we found all parts and the engine was ok. There have been other incidents, less dramatic. But after 7 or 8 years of trying different mechanics I only use one, Oasis Aero at Willmar. There have been three generations of ownership. First Bruce Jaeger, who sold it to Brian Negen. When Brian’s business failed, Eric Rudningen and Paul Beck started Oasis. I have to compliment Bruce on having a fastidious nature, which led him to inculcate a culture of great care that still exists today. In the early days I wrongly saw this as overly costly, with repairs sometimes being made that I would have left alone, but not anymore. So I don’t even take my oil changes anywhere else. I don’t know what to call it, but there is a characteristic of good management that insures that issues that have the chance to create real problems are always addressed and cured. Other things might be lower in priority and not perfect, but when it comes to safety, it has to be perfect. As a student pilot I like to think that I got some of the best emergency procedures training that was available and it served me well, since these incidents happened when I just had a couple of hundred hours. But I would greatly prefer to practice those skills without actually having to put them into practice. In fifteen years of working with Oasis and its predecessors, their work has never put me in that position. So that is my standard, if they try to kill me I just don’t go back, ever. Wrong culture.

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

When Brian’s business failed, Eric Rudningen and Paul Beck started Oasis.

Good to know there are new owners there.  

[Hank]

My current IA found that my 2-year-old ignition harness was about to fall apart at annual. So he checked other local planes and found two more. Kelly is close, so they sent people over to check them, and we all got new harnesses; they made some changes in their production operations, too. A year later, he had to replace one of the new plug leads.

Absolutely not Mooney specific, but it could have been exciting if my ignition harness had come apart in IMC.

The one bad lead cost me a long weekend at the beach, because the plane just wouldn't climb.

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, Aviationist said:

Maybe some day you can figure out what the REAL reason was for that. Because it wasn’t one bad plug lead…

I'm so glad your long-distance diagnostics are so much better than the IA who worked on my plane. Next time I have a problem, I'll call you instead. You seem like you need a trip to Sweet Home Alabama! 

[A64Pilot]

Maybe I’m the only one, but I took off in a C-152 in Tx on a very hot day on one mag, yes it was a Dog. I’ve never done it again, called one trial learning

Anyway that was a C-152 with full fuel mid day, Tx summer and it did fly, barely, but that was of course on only one Mag, so it lost one plug on all cylinders.

In my opinion if it’s worth anything that one plug on a six cyl engine just isn’t enough to cause what I saw on that video, and in truth the pilot should have aborted takeoff because he knew something was wrong before he pulled it off the ground, and he didn’t need any kind of engine monitor, even on a smooth running six, the complete loss of a cylinder will be noticed on a Mag check so I assume either he didn’t know how to do a Mag check, didn’t do one, or more likely just thought one was fouled and it will clean itself off soon, that was I guess his first warning, second was it not accelerating normally.

I see a LOT of incorrectly done Mag checks, usually done at taxi because they are in a hurry.

Ref flaps, many don’t use flaps for takeoff, I even had the instructor next door tell me I shouldn’t. His point was she will climb better with no flap, and he’s correct. My answer was the POH calls for their use.

Why was that takeoff recorded? Do they have some kind of automated camera that tracks and records every takeoff?

[Fly Boomer]

11 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

pilot should have aborted takeoff because he knew something was wrong before he pulled it off the ground, and he didn’t need any kind of engine monitor

Some wise person said "Things don't usually get better in the air."