Is it Starter Replacement Time?

[Igor_U]

Airplane is '67F (IO360-A1A) with LASAR cowl closure and starter is Lycoming p/n 31A22104 which should be SKY-TEC 149-12LS. Attached is the old picture.

 

In our recent trip to CA, it failed to engage once or twice (just a relay clunk with no spinning) but would eventually spin the engine. it happened again at home and I thought it was a battery. Being 9-10 years old, I chickened out and got a new Concord. of course, same issue so, I decided to investigate. Connection to both relays are good (relays relatively new) and looked at the starter after it refused to spin again. It's hard to see but it seems that the part (gear on the shaft?) that red arrow point so doesn't retract on aft on the shaft and is sticking. As soon I I move the prop (on tooth), it retracts and starter is ready to spin.

Is lubricating this worth it or replacement is imminent? Would silicon spray or LPT2 help?

What would you recommend as a replacement? I don't want to modify the baffles (all original) or experience fitment problems, including cable reach.

SkyTec guide recommends 149-NL but I have (permanent magnet) LS; what is the difference to 149-12LS? It seems LS is lighter (7.8lb vs. 9.8lb) but that is not that important in my case. Reliability is what I am primarily interested in.  What about B&C BC315-100-2 Starter? Would that fit with no modifications? With recent Hartzell price increase, B&C price is better comparing to Skytec, specially NL. 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I had one of those on my M20F. It did the same thing. I bought a new solenoid at the NAPA store for $15. It worked great after that. 

[Shadrach]

When the starter does engage, is it turning the prop as expected or does it seem labored?

The Bendix needs to spin fast enough to engage the centrifugal clutch. A shot of light lubricant isn’t going to hurt anything and may improve operations considerably.

[Igor_U]

16 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

When the starter does engage, is it turning the prop as expected or does it seem labored?

The Bendix needs to spin fast enough to engage the centrifugal clutch. A shot of light lubricant isn’t going to hurt anything and may improve operations considerably.

Ross,

It does spin with the normal speed. In the instance when it doesn't spin the engine at all, it seems solenoid is stuck in a FWD position. It will return (aft) if I move the prop.  

[N201MKTurbo]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

When the starter does engage, is it turning the prop as expected or does it seem labored?

The Bendix needs to spin fast enough to engage the centrifugal clutch. A shot of light lubricant isn’t going to hurt anything and may improve operations considerably.

That starter doesn’t have a centrifugal bendix. The side mounted solenoid pulls the gear into place and a spring retracts it. The solenoid also has a contactor, which is redundant in this application. 

[N201MKTurbo]

10 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Ross,

It does spin with the normal speed. In the instance when it doesn't spin the engine at all, it seems solenoid is stuck in a FWD position. It will return (aft) if I move the prop.  

The solenoid is used to engage the starter and has a contactor. If the contactor gets burned, it will engage the starter but won’t spin. Go to the auto parts store and buy a new solenoid. It is a Denso solenoid. It is cheap and will fix the problem.

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The solenoid is used to engage the starter and has a contactor. If the contactor gets burned, it will engage the starter but won’t spin. Go to the auto parts store and buy a new solenoid. It is a Denso solenoid. It is cheap and will fix the problem.

How have you learned all this stuff??  Seems like you’ve lived about 3 lives.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

How have you learned all this stuff??  Seems like you’ve lived about 3 lives.

The 24th of July will mark my 40th year of Mooney ownership. I’ve fixed a lot of problems.

[PT20J]

15 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The 24th of July will mark my 40th year of Mooney ownership. I’ve fixed a lot of problems.

I've owned two different Mooneys for a total of only 13 years. I've still had to fix a lot of problems. These are needful things.

[corn_flake]

@Igor_USorry to hijack your thread.  But, I have been battling my starter for months as well.  

@N201MKTurbo  My starter works fine except when the prop is pointed at about between 1 to 2 o'clock position when viewing from pilot seat.  No click, no clunk, Nothing!  If I get out the airplane and move the prop to any other position, say 3 o'clock, it will spin just fine.  I'm puzzled as I'm didin't think starter's operation is some how linked to the position of the prop.  Any ideas?  

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, corn_flake said:

@Igor_USorry to hijack your thread.  But, I have been battling my starter for months as well.  

@N201MKTurbo  My starter works fine except when the prop is pointed at about between 1 to 2 o'clock position when viewing from pilot seat.  No click, no clunk, Nothing!  If I get out the airplane and move the prop to any other position, say 3 o'clock, it will spin just fine.  I'm puzzled as I'm didin't think starter's operation is some how linked to the position of the prop.  Any ideas?  

I would take a look at your ring gear. The teeth are probably messed up. You can clean them up with a file or a Dremel. If you have a SkyTec LS starter, it won’t spin till the bendix is fully engaged. If the bendix teeth will not engage with the ring gear, it won’t spin.

If that is the case, you can dress out the burrs on the ring gear, or replace the ring gear.

[M20F-1968]

 

On 7/13/2024 at 10:22 AM, Igor_U said:

Airplane is '67F (IO360-A1A) with LASAR cowl closure and starter is Lycoming p/n 31A22104 which should be SKY-TEC 149-12LS. Attached is the old picture.

 

In our recent trip to CA, it failed to engage once or twice (just a relay clunk with no spinning) but would eventually spin the engine. it happened again at home and I thought it was a battery. Being 9-10 years old, I chickened out and got a new Concord. of course, same issue so, I decided to investigate. Connection to both relays are good (relays relatively new) and looked at the starter after it refused to spin again. It's hard to see but it seems that the part (gear on the shaft?) that red arrow point so doesn't retract on aft on the shaft and is sticking. As soon I I move the prop (on tooth), it retracts and starter is ready to spin.

Is lubricating this worth it or replacement is imminent? Would silicon spray or LPT2 help?

What would you recommend as a replacement? I don't want to modify the baffles (all original) or experience fitment problems, including cable reach.

SkyTec guide recommends 149-NL but I have (permanent magnet) LS; what is the difference to 149-12LS? It seems LS is lighter (7.8lb vs. 9.8lb) but that is not that important in my case. Reliability is what I am primarily interested in.  What about B&C BC315-100-2 Starter? Would that fit with no modifications? With recent Hartzell price increase, B&C price is better comparing to Skytec, specially NL. 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

I have a Sky-Tec starter which I installed on my engine, and about 209 hours later decided to replace my left-sided engine baffling as I hava a J model air box and air filter which really needed a different baffle and an in-line alternator.  This is the replacement for your alternator on an IO-36--A1A.  I have a 1968 F model, you have a 1967 F model, both with the same engine.  Mine however is turbo-normalized and has a J model air box and J model cowling.  I went for several years jerry-rigging the air filter until I made a new engine baffling on the air filter side.  The alternator I am selling was swapped out after about 8 years after it stumbled once or twice.  I replaced it with this one, and then shortly thereafter made a new engine baffling after my annual.The alternator pictured has 20 hours of flight time on it and is essentially new.  It is a Sky-Tec 12LS, 12 volt.  It will take care of your problems, is lighter, spins faster than what you have, and will be reliable since it is essentially new.  I can sell it for much less than new.  My cell is (617) 877-0025 and my e-mail is john.breda@gmail.com

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

2 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

On 7/13/2024 at 10:22 AM, Igor_U said:

 

On 7/13/2024 at 10:22 AM, Igor_U said:

Airplane is '67F (IO360-A1A) with LASAR cowl closure and starter is Lycoming p/n 31A22104 which should be SKY-TEC 149-12LS. Attached is the old picture.

 

In our recent trip to CA, it failed to engage once or twice (just a relay clunk with no spinning) but would eventually spin the engine. it happened again at home and I thought it was a battery. Being 9-10 years old, I chickened out and got a new Concord. of course, same issue so, I decided to investigate. Connection to both relays are good (relays relatively new) and looked at the starter after it refused to spin again. It's hard to see but it seems that the part (gear on the shaft?) that red arrow point so doesn't retract on aft on the shaft and is sticking. As soon I I move the prop (on tooth), it retracts and starter is ready to spin.

Is lubricating this worth it or replacement is imminent? Would silicon spray or LPT2 help?

What would you recommend as a replacement? I don't want to modify the baffles (all original) or experience fitment problems, including cable reach.

SkyTec guide recommends 149-NL but I have (permanent magnet) LS; what is the difference to 149-12LS? It seems LS is lighter (7.8lb vs. 9.8lb) but that is not that important in my case. Reliability is what I am primarily interested in.  What about B&C BC315-100-2 Starter? Would that fit with no modifications? With recent Hartzell price increase, B&C price is better comparing to Skytec, specially NL. 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

Please disreragd my earlier post - I screwed up the explanatioin - so much for not proof-reading.......

Here ity is again with the correct information.

I have a Sky-Tec starter which I installed on my engine, and about 20 hours later decided to replace my left-sided engine baffling as I hava a J model air box and air filter which really needed a different baffle and an in-line starter. 

The starter I am selling replaced an 8 year old starterof the same type which stumbled a couple of times and I did not want to be left with a problem away from home.  It is the direct replacement for your alternator on an IO-36--A1A.  I have a 1968 F model, you have a 1967 F model, both with the same engine.  Mine however is turbo-normalized and has a J model air box and J model cowling. 

I went for several years modifying my air filter by grinding it way to make room for the solenoid.  I finally made a new left-side engine baffling which was correct for the J-model air filter.  This has no side mounted solenoid to impinge upon the air filter area.  I then replaced the 20 hour old starter which I am selling with an in-line starter which is what was needed for my installation with the J model air filter.  The air filter now sits flat on the baffling without modifications.

This process left me with an essentially new Sky-Tec 12LS, 12 volt starter which is pictured below.  It will take care of your problems, is lighter, spins faster than what you have, and will be reliable since it is essentially new.  I can sell it for much less than new.  My cell is (617) 877-0025 and my e-mail is john.breda@gmail.com

John Breda

 

[corn_flake]

20 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I would take a look at your ring gear. The teeth are probably messed up. You can clean them up with a file or a Dremel. If you have a SkyTec LS starter, it won’t spin till the bendix is fully engaged. If the bendix teeth will not engage with the ring gear, it won’t spin.

If that is the case, you can dress out the burrs on the ring gear, or replace the ring gear.

Good Idea.  I will need to check that next time when I'm at the hangar and report back.  Thanks!

[Igor_U]

On 9/28/2024 at 2:07 AM, corn_flake said:

@Igor_USorry to hijack your thread.  But, I have been battling my starter for months as well.  

@N201MKTurbo  My starter works fine except when the prop is pointed at about between 1 to 2 o'clock position when viewing from pilot seat.  No click, no clunk, Nothing!  If I get out the airplane and move the prop to any other position, say 3 o'clock, it will spin just fine.  I'm puzzled as I'm didin't think starter's operation is some how linked to the position of the prop.  Any ideas?  

What starter do you have?

Just to be clear, I had SkyTec starter, same like John is posted a pictures above and replaced it with the new one. I just didn't want to get stuck somewhere on the trip and my IA was not fond of replacing the solenoid with automotive one. I didn't associate malfunction with a position of the stopped prop, however my seems to stop always at 1:30/7:30 position. but definitely would not work when Solenoid gear would get stuck on FWD. position. moving a prop slightly would allow the gear to slide back and starter would spin again.

Good luck.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Igor_U said:

What starter do you have?

Just to be clear, I had SkyTec starter, same like John is posted a pictures above and replaced it with the new one. I just didn't want to get stuck somewhere on the trip and my IA was not fond of replacing the solenoid with automotive one. I didn't associate malfunction with a position of the stopped prop, however my seems to stop always at 1:30/7:30 position. but definitely would not work when Solenoid gear would get stuck on FWD. position. moving a prop slightly would allow the gear to slide back and starter would spin again.

Good luck.

Humm, the whole starter is made with automotive parts.

[MikeOH]

54 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Humm, the whole starter is made with automotive parts.

Yah, but, the paperwork, what about the paperwork, oh, the horror….

[Nico1]

Before buying/changing anything take apart all the contacts, clean them and re-install. Oxide can build up quite quick and hard to see (even if looks clean on outside). I guess you probably already did that but might do the trick if not!

[Igor_U]

13 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Yah, but, the paperwork, what about the paperwork, oh, the horror….

It is often said that only when weight of the certification paperwork exceeds the MTOW of the plane, we can go flying. 

Of course now we have computers but the principle still applies. In my career I've seen such a room or two and I know it's true...

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Humm, the whole starter is made with automotive parts.

Much of the airplane!    Cars, tractors, trucks...without those the manufacturers wouldn't have had parts to pick from.      My neighbor with the M20A was replacing one of his push-pull controls with a wooden knob and figured out it said 'Buick' or something like that on it.   Was probably originally for a choke cable or something.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Much of the airplane!    Cars, tractors, trucks...without those the manufacturers wouldn't have had parts to pick from.      My neighbor with the M20A was replacing one of his push-pull controls with a wooden knob and figured out it said 'Buick' or something like that on it.   Was probably originally for a choke cable or something.

The starter cable on my Cessna says "CHOKE" on it. No idea where it came from, but it has a good strong knob on it.

[M20F-1968]

15 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Yah, but, the paperwork, what about the paperwork, oh, the horror….

A year ago I had the pully on my alternator split in half.  Turns out it was placed on the alternator ten years ago by an inept A&P in Dallas that I fired and sued.  He still owes me a bunch of money on the lawsuit that I won.  I thought I took apart everything he touched, but I missed the alternator pulley.  It was an automative part.

I replaced the pulley with a Hartzell Engine Products part, bought at Aircraft Spruce for $380.00.  It is a very different part.  Do not think automotive parts are adequate substitutes.

John Breda

[N201MKTurbo]

You said the pulley was the wrong part. In the case of the Sky Tec solenoid, it is the exact same part made by the same manufacturer. That being said, you should make sure you get a Denso solenoid not a Chinese knock off.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

A year ago I had the pully on my alternator split in half.  Turns out it was placed on the alternator ten years ago by an inept A&P in Dallas that I fired and sued.  He still owes me a bunch of money on the lawsuit that I won.  I thought I took apart everything he touched, but I missed the alternator pulley.  It was an automative part.

I replaced the pulley with a Hartzell Engine Products part, bought at Aircraft Spruce for $380.00.  It is a very different part.  Do not think automotive parts are adequate substitutes.

John Breda

There's wide variance in quality among automotive parts.    If you get the right "automotive" part it's generally no different than the one on the airplane.   In many cases the part number is the same, and @N201MKTurbo and I heard directly from an FAA rep at an IA seminar that this means it can be put on an airplane.   The main caveat is that "it's the same part."

If you get a cheaper version of the automotive part, you're likely to get what you pay for.    Caveat emptor.    Sorry your ex-A&P cheaped out on you.