Leadville (KLXV) in an NA Mooney?

[AndreiC]

More as an idle curiosity than anything else, but what are your thoughts about flying an 1970 M20E into and out of Leadville (highest commercial airport in the US, at 9934') in the summer? I am pretty sure I can make it into there, but the takeoff may be difficult. I calculated, and with an early morning departure the DA would be around 12000'. Has anyone tried anything like this? Let's say, just for the kicks, loaded 200lbs below MGW. The manual says nothing about runway length needed, etc. (The runway at LXV is 6400'.)

The back story is that I want to go hiking near Breckenridge, and the closest airport is LXV. Last time I did this, about 5-6 years ago, I flew to Salida (KANK, altitude 7523), in a Cherokee 180, and in the middle of a hot day takeoff was doable, but not easy, with a minimally loaded plane (no bags, pilot only, half-full tanks). I am trying to think of alternatives for this trip. (TBH, even Salida was not a good choice; in order to be able to take off I had to first drive my passengers to Fremont County 1V6, at 5442', drive to Salida, bring the plane back with just me in the plane, and then leave again from 1V6, quite a chore.)

Most likely I'll fly to Boulder or Rocky Mtn Metro, or, even better, Eagle County, and rent a car from there. But I just thought for kicks to think this through.

[toto]

There’s a nice YouTube series on Colorado flying by @Christian, called “Man and a Mooney” - he does Leadville and a bunch of other high country airports. Well worth a watch.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've flown a 180 HP C172 in and out of Leadville (September). My very first flight there was in a 150 HP 172K (April) that was based there.

It's definitely about the airplane; but far more about the pilot knolling what they are doing in those conditions

[T. Peterson]

38 minutes ago, toto said:

There’s a nice YouTube series on Colorado flying by @Christian, called “Man and a Mooney” - he does Leadville and a bunch of other high country airports. Well worth a watch.

 

Very cool video!! I did note the temperature was 29 degrees. That will certainly help with the take off numbers!

[Ryan ORL]

I flew my 1984 J in there last year... not really 'summer', but it was mid May at least.  Takeoff was around 8am... DA was around 11000.  We were deliberately at least 250 lbs under gross, or more.  (Had like ~30 gal onboard)

I didn't feel it was anything all that dramatic.  The runway is plenty long and the valley around Leadville is super wide and gradual.  If you are taking off to the south, assuming you clear the airport perimeter, if you never gained another foot of altitude, you're flying towards descending terrain all the way down out of the valley.  The terrain falls away from you continuously.

I was airborne well before halfway down the runway and I managed better than 600fpm on the initial climb.  I have had more uncomfortable takeoffs in tired and heavily loaded flight school planes in Florida in the summer.

Anyway this is all not to minimize it... maybe another 1000 ft of DA would have made it more uncomfortable, I don't know.  I wasn't interested in waiting until later in the day to find out.  I certainly didn't want to try it with anything more than the minimum fuel I needed to go somewhere else.

[KSMooniac]

I went there in October many years ago, and IIRC DA was ~13,000 when I departed.  Solo, but with bags and maybe 45 gallons of fuel.  It was anticlimactic, except for the ground roll that seemed to take forever!  Climb rate was poor as well, which was expected, but as mentioned above the terrain is benign around that airport.  I've landed at Aspen and Rifle... Aspen is far more difficult due to terrain and traffic.  Rifle is pretty easy and my preferred destination when visiting western CO.

[FoxMike]

Have flown out of Leadville midday in summer in an E model. Technique is important.  Leaning the engine to peak is tricky but necessary.  Making small tweaks to mixture on the takeoff run is usually necessary.  Low tire pressure is not something you think about much but make sure you do not have low tires. Wait for the airplane to get flying speed before you try to pull it off.  If I remember correctly runway 16 slopes down hill slightly.  If you need to reject the takeoff the runway is long enough to stop.  The airplane will climb slowly so stay in the valley headed south till you get up to 12K MSL.  Hypoxia can be a problem so having O2 on board is a good idea.  Need to be on your A game.  Don't forget to get your certificate from the FBO saying you landed at Leadville.

[0TreeLemur]

One thing I'd suggest from experience for high DA takeoffs is to not fixate on leaning/EGT but also get the gear up as soon as you can to help the plane accelerate.

[phxcobraz]

Leadville gets a tough rap for being the highest altitude runway in the US, and for many flatlanders it may be an intimidating feat, but it really isn't that bad. It has a pretty long runway, and if you takeoff on RW16, you basically only have to clear the airport fence and you have descending terrain all the way to Salida. There are tougher airports at lower altitudes due to surrounding terrain. KTEX comes to mind. I have had over 13k DA in Durango before, with 2 people and 40gal fuel and was at 500ft+ by end of the runway in my C model, though DRO is a 10kft runway.

Follow normal high DA technique and lean for max power on takeoff, get the gear up as soon as possible and accelerate in ground effect. Should be doable in summer. I would hesitate to do it past mid-morning but if you do depart early morning you should be fine.

It's a beautiful flight in and out, get your certificate and some swag, and enjoy it!

[phxcobraz]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:44 AM, Ryan ORL said:

I flew my 1984 J in there last year... not really 'summer', but it was mid May at least.  Takeoff was around 8am... DA was around 11000.  We were deliberately at least 250 lbs under gross, or more.  (Had like ~30 gal onboard)

I didn't feel it was anything all that dramatic.  The runway is plenty long and the valley around Leadville is super wide and gradual.  If you are taking off to the south, assuming you clear the airport perimeter, if you never gained another foot of altitude, you're flying towards descending terrain all the way down out of the valley.  The terrain falls away from you continuously.

I was airborne well before halfway down the runway and I managed better than 600fpm on the initial climb.  I have had more uncomfortable takeoffs in tired and heavily loaded flight school planes in Florida in the summer.

Anyway this is all not to minimize it... maybe another 1000 ft of DA would have made it more uncomfortable, I don't know.  I wasn't interested in waiting until later in the day to find out.  I certainly didn't want to try it with anything more than the minimum fuel I needed to go somewhere else.

Just realized you said basically the same as me haha. Teach me to read the whole thread first.  

[Ragsf15e]

I always have that damn gear uplimit/downlimit switch in the back of my mind when taking off high DA.  I’ve had a couple of instances (2 years ago) when the gear didn’t come up.  That could be catastrophic at very high DA.  The airplanes with gear override switches should think about when/how to use them, although, now that I think about it, that only overrides the airspeed switch or squat switch…

Edited July 11 by Ragsf15e

[N201MKTurbo]

We all take off with the gear down. If you can take off with the gear down, you can climb with the gear down. The drag isn’t much of a deal until you level off and accelerate. If you cannot climb with the gear down, you shouldn’t take off in the first place.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

We all take off with the gear down. If you can take off with the gear down, you can climb with the gear down. The drag isn’t much of a deal until you level off and accelerate. If you cannot climb with the gear down, you shouldn’t take off in the first place.

Yes probably true, but it cuts your climb rate by what, maybe half?  And you’re out of ground effect,  you’re right, it should climb, however we are asking a lot out of 200 hp (at sea level).

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yes probably true, but it cuts your climb rate by what, maybe half?  And you’re out of ground effect,  you’re right, it should climb, however we are asking a lot out of 200 hp (at sea level).

I don’t think that it cuts ROC that much. However, Vy and Vx are much lower with the gear down.  I can climb at >1000fpm with the gear out, but to do so I must pitch for ~85MIAS. Lots of reasons to avoid operating that way. High drag, high AOA, minimal margin above stall, poor cooling. My experiments were strictly a myth busting exercise brought about by other Mooney pilots claiming that the plane climbs poorly with the gear down.

I found a copy of the AFM for the M20D on SCRIBD (thanks Sven) that says the flowing:

So Vy for a D model at gross is 93MIAS…so that tracks with my experience of 85ish for my F with the gear down at around 2100lbs.

[Ryan ORL]

I think the biggest issue with the gear hanging out would be overheating the engine.  With the gear stuck down you're going to need a long Vy climb at a high power setting.

Even taking off from Leadville at 11000ft DA, I didn't have to do Vy for all that long and I was able to get into more of a cruise climb quickly and keep the temps under control.

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, Ryan ORL said:

I think the biggest issue with the gear hanging out would be overheating the engine.  With the gear stuck down you're going to need a long Vy climb at a high power setting.

Even taking off from Leadville at 11000ft DA, I didn't have to do Vy for all that long and I was able to get into more of a cruise climb quickly and keep the temps under control.

At Leadville?…Probably. At the more moderate DAs (3,000ish) that I was flying?…It was fine for pattern work. Things were a little warmer than usual upon attaining TPA but well within the range of comfortable. I did three circuits without raising the gear all with max performance climbs to TPA and never saw CHT over 350°. 
 

[Ragsf15e]

50 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

At Leadville?…Probably. At the more moderate DAs (3,000ish) that I was flying?…It was fine for pattern work. Things were a little warmer than usual upon attaining TPA but well within the range of comfortable. I did three circuits without raising the gear all with max performance climbs to TPA and never saw CHT over 350°. 
 

I’ve had the gear not come up and it was definitely noticeable on climb rate.  Maybe I could have slowed down and improved my climb rate, however I can tell you, that’s not the first thing that comes to mind on an instrument departure in the wx.  Im guessing it might not be reflex on a high DA takeoff either.  I guess im not saying it should definitely cause an accident, but if you’re taking off at a high DA already, you’ve got a lot of things you’re already working that are possibly different than usual.  The last thing you want is to try to change climb airspeeds to something much closer to stall, worry about engine temps, and deal with a  slower climb all while trying to figure out wtf is happening.  Maybe it’s still possible to fly the airplane just fine in that situation while we sit here typing, but I don’t want that to happen to me at say 2600lbs, 9000’ DA.  There’s a lot happening that’s probably adding to a chain.  Im not saying it can’t or shouldn’t be done (I made several high DA takeoffs last weekend with my family onboard), but it’s something that gives me pause.

All those “obstacles” around the airfield that you never consider at 1000fpm or even 500fpm look a lot different at 100 or even 200 fpm.

 

[EricJ]

I had to fly home with the gear down once, and departed an airport at about 5000' field elevation.   It didn't climb for crap at speeds appropriate for cooling at that altitude in AZ.   It was a highly notable difference compared to having the gear up.

I didn't try lower speeds because I wasn't trying to optimize climb, I was just trying to get home without stressing anything more than necessary, including engine temps.

 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’ve had the gear not come up and it was definitely noticeable on climb rate.  Maybe I could have slowed down and improved my climb rate, however I can tell you, that’s not the first thing that comes to mind on an instrument departure in the wx.  Im guessing it might not be reflex on a high DA takeoff either.  I guess im not saying it should definitely cause an accident, but if you’re taking off at a high DA already, you’ve got a lot of things you’re already working that are possibly different than usual.  The last thing you want is to try to change climb airspeeds to something much closer to stall, worry about engine temps, and deal with a  slower climb all while trying to figure out wtf is happening.  Maybe it’s still possible to fly the airplane just fine in that situation while we sit here typing, but I don’t want that to happen to me at say 2600lbs, 9000’ DA.  There’s a lot happening that’s probably adding to a chain.  Im not saying it can’t or shouldn’t be done (I made several high DA takeoffs last weekend with my family onboard), but it’s something that gives me pause.

All those “obstacles” around the airfield that you never consider at 1000fpm or even 500fpm look a lot different at 100 or even 200 fpm.

 

I agree with all that you've said above.  However, we are focused on two different things.  You're focused on the performance of the pilot in an unusual situation (entirely reasonable) and I am am focused on the performance of the plane.  My post is meant to be informative with regards to how the plane performs dirty and what must be done to extract reasonable climb performance under those circumstances.  Climb is a function of excess power. If you're trying to climb at normal climb speeds with the gear hanging out, you are putting most of that excess power into over coming drag to attain a speed number that is not  really relevant to the current situation. Yes it's slow, and outside the normal SOP.   Perhaps the best course of action is just imagine that 4 cylinder Mooney with the gear down is slightly faster Piper Archer because that's about how it will perform.  I have flown a number of airframes equipped with Lyc 4 cylinder that cruise at indicated speeds that are slower than climb speed in my F. Those airplane climb slower still yet their engines do just fine...in a pinch, so will ours.

Perhaps it will be of use to someone in an unusual predicament with gear that will not retract. 

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

I had to fly home with the gear down once, and departed an airport at about 5000' field elevation.   It didn't climb for crap at speeds appropriate for cooling at that altitude in AZ.   It was a highly notable difference compared to having the gear up.

I didn't try lower speeds because I wasn't trying to optimize climb, I was just trying to get home without stressing anything more than necessary, including engine temps.

 

There are plenty of draggy airframes flying around with 360ci, 4 cylinder lycomings that never see the kinds of speeds that Mooney pilots find optimal for cooling.

[Ragsf15e]

34 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I agree with all that you've said above.  However, we are focused on two different things.  You're focused on the performance of the pilot in an unusual situation (entirely reasonable) and I am am focused on the performance of the plane.  My post is meant to be informative with regards to how the plane performs dirty and what must be done to extract reasonable climb performance under those circumstances.  Climb is a function of excess power. If you're trying to climb at normal climb speeds with the gear hanging out, you are putting most of that excess power into over coming drag to attain a speed number that is not  really relevant to the current situation. Yes it's slow, and outside the normal SOP.   Perhaps the best course of action is just imagine that 4 cylinder Mooney with the gear down is slightly faster Piper Archer because that's about how it will perform.  I have flown a number of airframes equipped with Lyc 4 cylinder that cruise at indicated speeds that are slower than climb speed in my F. Those airplane climb slower still yet their engines do just fine...in a pinch, so will ours.

Perhaps it will be of use to someone in an unusual predicament with gear that will not retract. 

Yes, hopefully the discussion will be of use to someone in a pinch.  I will submit that the performance of the airplane is dependent on the performance of the pilot, and something as unexpected as the gear issue we’re discussing that requires a relatively large/unplanned change in normal sop is going to impact performance of the pilot/airplane system.  
I will also ask that next time you’re out west, stop by, I’ll buy lunch, but we’re going to do our lunch run somewhere appropriately high so you can have a more recent memory of high DA departure because I feel like we’re talking over each other.

[0TreeLemur]

Last week I took off on RWY 09 at Los Alamos (field elevation 7171).  Winds were out of the south at 15, with a DA of "only" 8600 ft.   The runway at LAM is located on a mesa, with steep drops on both the left and right side of the runway and the east end.

After pulling the nose up at about 63-64 KIAS and lumbering off the ground, at about 30-40 ft above the runway she stopped climbing and started to slow.  Power looked good.  I had leaned the mixture during the takeoff roll to get my target 1250F EGT.  So, I lowered the nose.  What I didn't do at that moment that I should have was raise the landing gear.

After a few seconds we flew off the east end of the mesa and gained 1000' of AGL.  It was then that I realized that I hadn't raised the gear yet because of the distraction.   I'm guessing that the flight was affected by descending air over the runway from a roller created by south winds interacting with the mesa. 

A superior pilot in that situation would have anticipated the possibility of flying into descending air and recognized the importance of getting the gear up to maximize performance.   Luckily the situation did not require application of my superior skills...

[Shadrach]

36 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Last week I took off on RWY 09 at Los Alamos (field elevation 7171).  Winds were out of the south at 15, with a DA of "only" 8600 ft.   The runway at LAM is located on a mesa, with steep drops on both the left and right side of the runway and the east end.

After pulling the nose up at about 63-64 KIAS and lumbering off the ground, at about 30-40 ft above the runway she stopped climbing and started to slow.  Power looked good.  I had leaned the mixture during the takeoff roll to get my target 1250F EGT.  So, I lowered the nose.  What I didn't do at that moment that I should have was raise the landing gear.

After a few seconds we flew off the east end of the mesa and gained 1000' of AGL.  It was then that I realized that I hadn't raised the gear yet because of the distraction.   I'm guessing that the flight was affected by descending air over the runway from a roller created by south winds interacting with the mesa. 

A superior pilot in that situation would have anticipated the possibility of flying into descending air and recognized the importance of getting the gear up to maximize performance.   Luckily the situation did not require application of my superior skills...

You know, I’m not so sure your choice wasn’t the best. Unstable air and high DA…gear probably did not make that much of a difference and if you’d settled back on it would have been ugly.  Flying off the cliff with gear down seems like a reasonable strategy.

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

You know, I’m not so sure your choice wasn’t the best. Unstable air and high DA…gear probably did not make that much of a difference and if you’d settled back on it would have been ugly.  Flying off the cliff with gear down seems like a reasonable strategy.

I'm pretty sure I screwed up.  When I retract the gear in my J she quickly accelerates.   By the time I got off and she started to settle, I there wasn't enough runway left to land on.

[Ragsf15e]

26 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I'm pretty sure I screwed up.  When I retract the gear in my J she quickly accelerates.   By the time I got off and she started to settle, I there wasn't enough runway left to land on.

Good chance your gear wouldn’t have even come up if you were that slow due to the airspeed switch.  I saw that last week.  Took off, leveled in ground effect to accelerate, selected gear up when I was sure I wouldn’t descend and nothing happened.  Then , maybe 2” delay, gear went up.  Im pretty sure I was just below the airspeed switch point.