Open Door In Flight training?

[Ibra]

It seems to be the idea from POH, they recommend 95kts which is a good “safe speed” to do anything with the aircraft (stable, white arc…), however, in practice it’s easier to close at slower speeds (80kts), airspeed wiggles with open window and open door while slipping with limited risk to ripping the door off if it pops out, in any case, it’s worth having some height and extra speed to the stall…

Edited May 20, 2024 by Ibra

[wombat]

I'm not going to argue with anyone who says they tried it and couldn't get it to shut.   Every airplane is different.  But I was able to get my E's door to shut.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I have had the door pop open in my old E.  I could re-engage the main door latch but not the upper one during flight.  Perhaps the differences in reports are due in part to the two latches.  Some can close the door and latch one, some both of them.  
 

As an instructor I have “introduced realistic distractions” by popping the door.  But only on warm days because it’s real drafty in the right seat.  

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have had the door pop open in my old E.  I could re-engage the main door latch but not the upper one during flight.  Perhaps the differences in reports are due in part to the two latches.  Some can close the door and latch one, some both of them. 

Some of us only have the one door latch by the handle. The upper latch is offered to Vintage Mooneys by STC, but you need an experienced installer as it's only possible to drill into the door frame one time . . . And apparently I'm a coward . . . (which has likely kept me alive a few times).

[M20F]

11 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I opened my storm window as well when I closed my door in flight. I don’t dispute that it helps, as certainly seems to drop the pressure in the cabin. The thing is, anyone that has removed their interior has likely seen the large cabin outflow vents on each side of the cabin below the rear seat backs. The vents are ~3cm x 8cm rectangular openings that are covered externally by louvered plates. I would think would be adequate to prevent a pressure differential. Perhaps someone has some additional insight as to why opening a third vent (side window) makes a difference.

 

Light a cigarette and then open the storm window.  You will see the pressure differential.  

[Shadrach]

23 minutes ago, M20F said:

Light a cigarette and then open the storm window.  You will see the pressure differential.  

Like a smokeless ashtray.  I’m a child of the 70s and 80s…I’ve seen it more than I care to admit. 
I’d bet that every bird on this board built prior to 1980 has had the pilot window opened in flight for a smoke.

[DavePage]

Over my 24 years of owning Mooney's, I've had a door pop on a Model C & a K.  No way to close them.  Best advice, "Keep Calm and Carry On", continue to closest airport, land and close securely.

[wombat]

Maybe something I can do is make a video while trying to shut a door in flight.  That would be fun. 

[Igor_U]

On 5/16/2024 at 9:06 AM, wombat said:

What does everyone think?  Is this just a stupid idea that is going to get people killed or is it a great idea that will save lives?

I was a low time Cessna pilot when I got complex endorsement on a 77 M20J owned by a club with Mooney experienced CFI.  Open door at the takeoff/initial climb was on his curriculum. We, off course briefed it in advance and he opened the door right after the takeoff. we continued to the safe altitude and close the door (slow down, open the storm window and slip). Years after, with my new to me M20F door popped open as my wife didn't closed it fully and we used the same procedure to close the door with no issues.

BTW, in my experience, poorly locking door was due to door seal not properly installed and interfering with latches. After installing the new seal, I never had an issue with closing the door and keep it closed.

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, wombat said:

Maybe something I can do is make a video while trying to shut a door in flight.  That would be fun. 

If you're coming over to KSFF's Neighbor Day we can try it in your plane!

[McMooney]

I was able to close the door on my E, think i was in a climb and slipped into the wind.    If it hadn't closed i would've just ignored it till i landed somewhere, plane didn't fly any different.   heck it didn't even provide a cooling breeze

[Pinecone]

Hmm, if you can close it after opening, you could use the open door as a relief tube, as per Gordon Baxter

 

 

[Tom Mc]

My to cents....M20C, my passenger who was familiar in the door operations, did not latch it correctly 'this' flight. At 50' or so they notice (with an excited voice and demeanor) the door top was about 1'to 2" open.

I raised the gear and told TWR I was returning - open cabin door.  I didn't work the door inflight, I flew the plane normally except a bit slower than normal.   I had my passenger fully release (open) it to stop the bending moment of the door frame. They then tried to re-close the door on downwind about 90mph (cabin vents open).  No way...that door was going to stay open. Landed normally.  I then gave my passenger a grumpy/WTF look and said " when you told me that you checked the door I believed you..." "Pay attention and stop looking at the damn phone. People have died with open doors in flight. This serious sh t. Pay attention!". 

I created a small passenger checklist (dash Placard) for them to complete:

1. Door latch - push top and bottom

2. Seat belts latch and secure - pull on the belt strap near latch

3. Seat pins lock in a hole - push-pull-rock seat back and forth.

4. PUT your PHONE AWAY for Take-Off and Landings

>great forum<

T

[LANCECASPER]

31 minutes ago, Tom Mc said:

My to cents....M20C, my passenger who was familiar in the door operations, did not latch it correctly 'this' flight. At 50' or so they notice (with an excited voice and demeanor) the door top was about 1'to 2" open.

I raised the gear and told TWR I was returning - open cabin door.  I didn't work the door inflight, I flew the plane normally except a bit slower than normal.   I had my passenger fully release (open) it to stop the bending moment of the door frame. They then tried to re-close the door on downwind about 90mph (cabin vents open).  No way...that door was going to stay open. Landed normally.  I then gave my passenger a grumpy/WTF look and said " when you told me that you checked the door I believed you..." "Pay attention and stop looking at the damn phone. People have died with open doors in flight. This serious sh t. Pay attention!". 

I created a small passenger checklist (dash Placard) for them to complete:

1. Door latch - push top and bottom

2. Seat belts latch and secure - pull on the belt strap near latch

3. Seat pins lock in a hole - push-pull-rock seat back and forth.

4. PUT your PHONE AWAY for Take-Off and Landings

>great forum<

T

I never let a passenger touch the door latch since they'll try to slam it every time. That's my job and part of my pre-flight since I'm the one with the license. 

This placard is on my door: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/warningonlythepilotplacard.php?clickkey=6452

 

[DCarlton]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I never let a passenger touch the door latch since they'll try to slam it every time. That's my job and part of my pre-flight since I'm the one with the license. 

This placard is on my door: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/warningonlythepilotplacard.php?clickkey=6452

 

Yep.  I don't even ask passengers to push on the center top of the door to check and see if it's latched.  It breaks the plastic where it bumps out in the center.  I push on each side of the bump.  

[201er]

3 hours ago, Tom Mc said:

I then gave my passenger a grumpy/WTF look and said " when you told me that you checked the door I believed you..." "Pay attention and stop looking at the damn phone. People have died with open doors in flight. This serious sh t. Pay attention!". 

I created a small passenger checklist (dash Placard) for them to complete:

91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

[Tom Mc]

Yep all true- PIC is PIC...Check lists are a must.   We all can get complacent at times, and that is when you get bit.   Even after 1010 times the door was closed and latch correctly, one distraction is all it takes.   The reality is during warm summer days the cabin door can be opened and closed several times during ground operations.  Good communication is important. 

In my line of work, the captain is the captain, however when the other member says "check" then the captain most likely trusts it.  

My story was reality - detailing there was no way my M20C door can be closed in flight without maybe sever slips at low airspeed.  Even then, I don't think 'my door' would close.

If the door opens, just fly the pattern and land.  Your Mooney will fly just fine around the patch.  And if you do have an open door, sunny days would be preferred over dark rainy nights.... 

[Will.iam]

I would say opening the door on short final would be good once to experience the wind noise as it is significant. Had it happen to me once and was surprised by the noise but that was all. I have not tried to close my door in flight nor have i had it open on me in flight again. If i did i will try to close it if I’m not in the pattern and if i am i can live with the noise until i get down on the ground. 

[Hank]

My door has opened twice--my wife's first flight, where Miss I Can Do It Myself shut the door, and it popped open about three miles away. I gave her the choice of continuing our hour-plus flight or going back to land, she chose to land.

The other time was a warm day, flying alone. Looking back, I couldn't remember if I actually closed the door before takeoff or not, but I noticed it climbing through several hundred feet agl. Decided to keep going, leveled off at 3000 msl for a 40-minute flight, slowed down just below 100 mph, opened my storm window and figured I could try one time; to my great surprise, I was able to close and latch it, then continued on. It wasn't too noisy, and I could have finished the flight, but thought it was worth one try (but not two tries!).

YMMV and all that . . . . .