GPSS help

[Wingover]

I was reading some of the posts on the subject of legacy AP's with Garmin equipment.  I am trying to understand how to select the GPSS on my G5.

I have the Garmin 175 GPS, one G5 and KAP150 AP.  The AP in NAV mode follows the VOR and in heading mode follows my heading bug.  I can't seems to get the AP to follow the flight plan in the GPS.

In the G5 I can select VLOC or GPS but I don't see GPSS.  I am told the plane (new to me) has the GAD29 installed.

[201Mooniac]

You should check section 4.1 of the G5 Pilot's Guide, it describes the process.  While I haven't ever done this with your configuration of equipment I think basically if everything is installed to enable GPSS, you would enter your flightplan on the GPS, have the G5 on Magenta needles, on the G5:
1) Press the Selection Knob to display the Menu.
2) Turn the Selection Knob to select GPSS.
3) Press the Selection Knob to enable/disable GPSS Mode.

and on the KAP150 select heading mode.,

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Wingover said:

I was reading some of the posts on the subject of legacy AP's with Garmin equipment.  I am trying to understand how to select the GPSS on my G5.

I have the Garmin 175 GPS, one G5 and KAP150 AP.  The AP in NAV mode follows the VOR and in heading mode follows my heading bug.  I can't seems to get the AP to follow the flight plan in the GPS.

In the G5 I can select VLOC or GPS but I don't see GPSS.  I am told the plane (new to me) has the GAD29 installed.

Interesting.  It only has one G5?

I have 2 G5s, GPSS is only accessible on the HSI G5. I wonder if you can do GPSS with only one G5?

Edited March 1 by Ragsf15e

[201Mooniac]

Ah, good point, I didn't ask if the G5 was ADI or HSI I presumed HSI as G5 doesn't work with non Garmin APs as an attitude source.  I'm not familiar with the KAP 150 so I'm not sure if it needs an attitude source from the ADI.

[Ragsf15e]

7 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

Ah, good point, I didn't ask if the G5 was ADI or HSI I presumed HSI as G5 doesn't work with non Garmin APs as an attitude source.  I'm not familiar with the KAP 150 so I'm not sure if it needs an attitude source from the ADI.

Ahh, I assumed ADI but you’re probably right.  If he has an hsi, should be simple as push knob, twist right to gpss, push knob again, confirm that it’s selected in the too left of screen you see a little hdg bug symbol with an x through it.

[OR75]

45 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

You should check section 4.1 of the G5 Pilot's Guide, it describes the process.  While I haven't ever done this with your configuration of equipment I think basically if everything is installed to enable GPSS, you would enter your flightplan on the GPS, have the G5 on Magenta needles, on the G5:
1) Press the Selection Knob to display the Menu.
2) Turn the Selection Knob to select GPSS.
3) Press the Selection Knob to enable/disable GPSS Mode.

and on the KAP150 select heading mode.,

if the plane has the GAD29, you will not have the GPSS function.   you need to have the GAD29B or D 

Makes a difference  

[OR75]

the GAD29B or D get NAV input from the navigator (the 175 in your case) via ARINC 429 connections

  

[Wingover]

Thanks for the replies.  The G5 is an HSI and the attitude indicator is the original one.  
The GAD 29 is B or D

I was told that one G5 should work 

[midlifeflyer]

If you are not seeing GPSS as one of  the G5 options, you should be speaking with your installer. If you have that choice, your 150 should be in HDG mode.

Edited March 2 by midlifeflyer

[Wingover]

I’m going to try again when the weather gets better here.

[PT20J]

You can check it on the ground. The installation manual has a procedure. You can get the G5 installation manual from the Garmin website. https://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-10_30.pdf. See page 212.

[bcg]

Do you have both the NAV radio and the GPS connected to the G5?  If so, that's not correct per the install manual.  With a non-Garmin AP, you're only allowed to connect 1 nave source to the G5.  If I installed it, I would have put the GPS onto the G5 and kept a separate CDI for the NAV radio.  In heading mode, is it following the heading bug on the G5 HSI or the NAV radio CDI/HSI/whatever?

Did you follow the install manual for the G5 settings for the AP?  Verify those are all correct before going any further.  If they are, and the wiring is correct (the GPS is connecting to the GAD29 via ARINC29 and the G5 via RS232), then you should have a GPSS option in the G5 to enable that mode.

It kind of sounds to me like someone installed this without reading the manual and a somewhat incomplete understanding of how it should be connected/programmed and what the limitations are with a non-Garmin AP.

[Pinecone]

Also, isn't there some settings that have to be done on the KAP-150 to properly communicate and work with the new attitude source?

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Also, isn't there some settings that have to be done on the KAP-150 to properly communicate and work with the new attitude source?

He doesn’t have a new attitude source, they kept the original adi.  He just has the g5 hsi.  @bcg is correct though, there’s only one navigation input allowed when used with a non Garmin autopilot.  Since the hsi is tracking a vor, it “shouldn’t” be wired to the gps175 as well.  Maybe it’s not exactly meeting the installation instructions though?

[bcg]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

He doesn’t have a new attitude source, they kept the original adi.  He just has the g5 hsi.  @bcg is correct though, there’s only one navigation input allowed when used with a non Garmin autopilot.  Since the hsi is tracking a vor, it “shouldn’t” be wired to the gps175 as well.  Maybe it’s not exactly meeting the installation instructions though?

I don't know enough about that AP to say for sure but, it's possible that he has both a Heading and a L/R error input, which would in theory allow it to both track a VOR and follow a GPS.  The S-Tec 50 in mine has both, I probably have the names wrong because I'm just going by memory here.  If there are both green and magenta needles on the HSI though, it's hooked up incorrectly.  It might work, I think the Experimental version allows it (again it's been a while since I read the manual so I could be wrong), it's definitely not "legal" on a Certified aircraft installation.

 

I think the answers to his question are probably in the installation manual though, and someone just didn't read them.  It took me a couple of weeks to really understand what was and wasn't allowed and how it all needed to interconnect and interact when I added the 2nd G5 and GAD29B to my plane to replace the Icarus SAM GPSS.  It's straightforward once you understand it, getting to that point can be a little confusing though.

[Andy95W]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:27 AM, bcg said:

Do you have both the NAV radio and the GPS connected to the G5?  If so, that's not correct per the install manual.  With a non-Garmin AP, you're only allowed to connect 1 nave source to the G5.  

Hi @bcg.  Please post your reference from the G5 installation manual for this.  I haven’t been able to find it.

I installed my G5s about 4 years ago and only connected it to my GPS175.  I never saw that restriction when I installed it.  I was thinking of connecting it to a NAV source also but won’t if it’s not allowed.

Thanks!

[bcg]

29 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Hi @bcg.  Please post your reference from the G5 installation manual for this.  I haven’t been able to find it.

I installed my G5s about 4 years ago and only connected it to my GPS175.  I never saw that restriction when I installed it.  I was thinking of connecting it to a NAV source also but won’t if it’s not allowed.

Thanks!

It's in the Limitations section.  In version 190-01112-10 Rev. 30, that's Page 23, and it's the last line, which says -

"cannot interface with dual navigators if G5 is interfaced with a non-Garmin autopilot"

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Hi @bcg.  Please post your reference from the G5 installation manual for this.  I haven’t been able to find it.

I installed my G5s about 4 years ago and only connected it to my GPS175.  I never saw that restriction when I installed it.  I was thinking of connecting it to a NAV source also but won’t if it’s not allowed.

Thanks!

The fun thing is that it can be interfaced with dual navigators if you have the gfc500 (since that’s a garmin autopilot).

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, bcg said:

It's in the Limitations section.  In version 190-01112-10 Rev. 30, that's Page 23, and it's the last line, which says -

"cannot interface with dual navigators if G5 is interfaced with a non-Garmin autopilot"

Thanks!  Learn something new every day…

[Wingover]

On 3/3/2024 at 4:27 PM, bcg said:

Do you have both the NAV radio and the GPS connected to the G5?  If so, that's not correct per the install manual.  With a non-Garmin AP, you're only allowed to connect 1 nave source to the G5.  If I installed it, I would have put the GPS onto the G5 and kept a separate CDI for the NAV radio.  In heading mode, is it following the heading bug on the G5 HSI or the NAV radio CDI/HSI/whatever?

Did you follow the install manual for the G5 settings for the AP?  Verify those are all correct before going any further.  If they are, and the wiring is correct (the GPS is connecting to the GAD29 via ARINC29 and the G5 via RS232), then you should have a GPSS option in the G5 to enable that mode.

It kind of sounds to me like someone installed this without reading the manual and a somewhat incomplete understanding of how it should be connected/programmed and what the limitations are with a non-Garmin AP.

This is a new Mooney to me.  I am still learning the setup.  I am not sure about the NAV radio connection.  How would you track the localizer by the AP if you could not tune it into the G5?  I didn't install it.  It was done by a previous owner.

Could you point me to where in the installation pages of the 175 and G5 (on the unit itself, not manual) I can take screenshots to give you some idea of the communication installation?

Really appreciate all the help

I did go to the plane and got the GPS on, put a flight plan but could not get GPSS.  Only option is still GPS or VOR

Edited March 5 by Wingover

[bcg]

This is a new Mooney to me.  I am still learning the setup.  I am not sure about the NAV radio connection.  How would you track the localizer by the AP if you could not tune it into the G5?  I didn't install it.  It was done by a previous owner.
Could you point me to where in the installation pages of the 175 and G5 I can take screenshots to give you some idea of the communication?
Really appreciate all the help

With a non-Garmin AP, the only way to track a LOC in the G5 is to have a combo navigator like a GTN or Avidyne IFD. It's a limitation. I put a 2nd G5 and SL30 in my plane thinking I could connect them both to the G5 and discovered that wasn't the case so I had to retain my Collins CDI for the SL30 and only connect the 175 to the G5.

Search Google for the doc I posted to answer the limitations question above, that's the G5 installation manual. Towards the end of the document are instructions on exactly how the settings should be in the GPS 175 and G5 for different APs. You just need to go through your config and make sure that's what was done.

In order to get this functioning correctly, you're probably going to have to install a separate CDI for the NAV radio. The G5 doesn't know what it's supposed to be tracking without the Garmin AP, they have it setup so that all that magic happens in the GFC500, not the G5. Unless you're comfortable with redoing wiring, you're going to end up having to take this to someone to do it for you. Even if you can do the work yourself, you're going to need an IA to sign it off for you. It's not really complicated if you're technically savvy, you've just got to read and understand the installation instructions and have the right tools. The crimper for the pins is several hundred bucks by the time you get the dies and stuff with the less expensive J Ready. If you buy the actual aviation crimper, you're pushing a grand pretty quick.

I'm happy to help how I can but, I think in the end you're likely going to have to take it somewhere since you really should have another CDI installed for the install to comply with the STC.

Where are you located? If you're close enough, I can look at it and go through things. It's almost impossible to troubleshoot something like this remotely, I'm having to make some assumptions based on what you're describing and they could be entirely incorrect. Lots of possibilities as to how things can be connected and installed. It might even be something as simple as a bad connection somewhere, although that doesn't sound likely based on what you have said.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[Ragsf15e]

19 minutes ago, Wingover said:

This is a new Mooney to me.  I am still learning the setup.  I am not sure about the NAV radio connection.  How would you track the localizer by the AP if you could not tune it into the G5?  I didn't install it.  It was done by a previous owner.

Could you point me to where in the installation pages of the 175 and G5 (on the unit itself, not manual) I can take screenshots to give you some idea of the communication installation?

Really appreciate all the help

I did go to the plane and got the GPS on, put a flight plan but could not get GPSS.  Only option is still GPS or VOR

Since you can track a vor, and your gps doesn’t have a vor (gps 175 is just gps), what radio is it tracking?  That should be the only “navigator” it’s connected to.  
I would have thought it would be connected to the -175 as it’s only navigator, but then you wouldn’t have VOR tracking as an option.

[Wingover]

12 minutes ago, bcg said:

With a non-Garmin AP, the only way to track a LOC in the G5 is to have a combo navigator like a GTN or Avidyne IFD. It's a limitation. I put a 2nd G5 and SL30 in my plane thinking I could connect them both to the G5 and discovered that wasn't the case so I had to retain my Collins CDI for the SL30 and only connect the 175 to the G5.

Search Google for the doc I posted to answer the limitations question above, that's the G5 installation manual. Towards the end of the document are instructions on exactly how the settings should be in the GPS 175 and G5 for different APs. You just need to go through your config and make sure that's what was done.

In order to get this functioning correctly, you're probably going to have to install a separate CDI for the NAV radio. The G5 doesn't know what it's supposed to be tracking without the Garmin AP, they have it setup so that all that magic happens in the GFC500, not the G5. Unless you're comfortable with redoing wiring, you're going to end up having to take this to someone to do it for you. Even if you can do the work yourself, you're going to need an IA to sign it off for you. It's not really complicated if you're technically savvy, you've just got to read and understand the installation instructions and have the right tools. The crimper for the pins is several hundred bucks by the time you get the dies and stuff with the less expensive J Ready. If you buy the actual aviation crimper, you're pushing a grand pretty quick.

I'm happy to help how I can but, I think in the end you're likely going to have to take it somewhere since you really should have another CDI installed for the install to comply with the STC.

Where are you located? If you're close enough, I can look at it and go through things. It's almost impossible to troubleshoot something like this remotely, I'm having to make some assumptions based on what you're describing and they could be entirely incorrect. Lots of possibilities as to how things can be connected and installed. It might even be something as simple as a bad connection somewhere, although that doesn't sound likely based on what you have said.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 

My installation manual is 190-01112-12 Rev. A and I could not find the limitation you have in your manual version.  I do have a separate CDI.  Here is a pic of the panel

I am wondering if I am confusing VLOC and VOR from NAV radio

Edited March 5 by Wingover

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, Wingover said:

My installation manual is 190-01112-12 Rev. A and I could not find the limitation you have in your manual version.  I do have a separate CDI.  Here is a pic of the panel

Theoretically, the shop that installed this provided a diagram of the wiring and a copy of tge config.  Any chance you could find that if it exists?

[Wingover]

I have asked but chances are low