This will stir-up a hornet’s nest…

[hammdo]

https://www.mountainhome.af.mil/News-Photos-Videos/Article-Display/Article/3681900/innovation-cell-hosts-eloran-demonstration/

“The eLoran system is a modern take on the long-range navigation system that was used in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and it is going to be used in conjunction with GPS to help mitigate spoofing operations in contested environments”.

DOD new it was an issue in January 1015:

https://insidegnss.com/dod-seeks-sources-for-50000-eloran-receivers/

-Don

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, hammdo said:

https://www.mountainhome.af.mil/News-Photos-Videos/Article-Display/Article/3681900/innovation-cell-hosts-eloran-demonstration/

“The eLoran system is a modern take on the long-range navigation system that was used in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and it is going to be used in conjunction with GPS to help mitigate spoofing operations in contested environments”.

DOD new it was an issue in January 1015:

https://insidegnss.com/dod-seeks-sources-for-50000-eloran-receivers/

-Don

Ha! We had procedures for dealing with jamming in 2003…

[dkkim73]

1 minute ago, Ragsf15e said:

Ha! We had procedures for dealing with jamming in 2003…

Besides dropping a bomb on them?

[Ragsf15e]

11 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Besides dropping a bomb on them?

That’s 100% the best procedure!  

[dkkim73]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

That’s 100% the best procedure!  

I would guess it helps average over vagaries in subtle algorithmic differences and whatnot. Reminds me of the line from Aliens, "take off and nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure". 

Had that feeling doing some night pattern work and some yahoo was lasing a student pilot flight. 

[hammdo]

A few 105s from an A10 would do the trick…

-Don

[Pinecone]

On 2/25/2024 at 12:51 AM, hammdo said:

A few 105s from an A10 would do the trick…

-Don

Huh???

AC-130 has a 105.  The A-10 only has the 30mm cannon, and bombs and rockets.

[hammdo]

My bad…

[Pinecone]

The problem with eLORAN is that the LORAN stations are decommissioned, so need to be rebuilt/refurbished.

For domestic US, VOR and DME are still up and running.  Many GPS navigators have a VOR receiver, so simple software would make them do VOR/VOR navigation.  Adding a DME receiver (even external to the navigator) and some more software and you can do VOR/DME and DME/DME navigation.

[Pinecone]

1 minute ago, hammdo said:

My bad…

Both are amazing platforms for making people on the ground sorry the managed to get the aircraft mad at them.

But the A-10 is a WHOLE lot more fun to fly.

 

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The problem with eLORAN is that the LORAN stations are decommissioned, so need to be rebuilt/refurbished.

Even if the old LORAN stations were up and running, my guess is they'd all have to be rebuilt/refurbished to convert to *e*LORAN.  Certainly the Transmitters, but I'm sure there's a lot more too the new system.  If eLORAN takes off, maybe they'll end up with more locations or better locations.  (Don't know that the old ones were in a bad location, but I'm sure there is always the chance for improvement.)

 

[Pinecone]

Have to find the funding.

VOR/VOR, VOR/DME and DME/DME use existing ground equipment.

[EricJ]

32 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Have to find the funding.

VOR/VOR, VOR/DME and DME/DME use existing ground equipment.

And VOR/VOR is cheap and easy and doesn't require a transmitter (so much less cost, no FCC approval required, etc.).   It's also not quite as accurate as using a DME, but the difference in required equipment is large.    VOR/VOR can be done on a handheld (e.g., stratux) that connects to your EFB, so nothing in-panel is required.

All that said, an EFB connected to a stratux or something similar with its own GPS receiver isn't entirely dependent on GPS.   Most of the inexpensive USB GPS/GNSS receivers use chipsets that also recieve GLONASS, Galileo, BeiDou, etc., etc.    I've been experimenting with a number of them (u-blox, SiRF, Garmin), and there's a reported field called "TalkerID" that indicates which satellite system it is using at the time.  Some of them switch once in a while between GPS and "multiple", and they don't tell you what else they're using in addition to GPS.   The capability definitely seems to be there that if GPS went away for some reason and wasn't passing it's integrity check it'd just fall back to something else available.   I suspect the internal GPS in many tablets will do the same, as they generally all use similar chipsets.   I don't think any in-panel "GPS" units will do this, though.

[toto]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Have to find the funding.

VOR/VOR, VOR/DME and DME/DME use existing ground equipment.

Yep. We would have problems relying on VOR or VOR/DME when the minimum operational network is all that’s left - especially below airline altitudes.

I think one of the advantages of LORAN is that it requires a relatively small number of transmitters along the coast to get enroute navigation across the continental US.

[dkkim73]

10 hours ago, Pinecone said:

The A-10 only has the 30mm cannon, and bombs and rockets.

"Only" the 30mm cannon, bombs, and rockets. 

I just had to point out that's kind of funny. 

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, toto said:

I think one of the advantages of LORAN is that it requires a relatively small number of transmitters along the coast to get enroute navigation across the continental US.

Lower frequency, longer propagation distance with LORAN, compared to VOR which is VHF and IIUC closer to line-of-sight in terms of distance (e.g. think about airway switchover, etc). 

[toto]

15 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Lower frequency, longer propagation distance with LORAN, compared to VOR which is VHF and IIUC closer to line-of-sight in terms of distance (e.g. think about airway switchover, etc). 

For now, I think VOR is still the plan - at least in the US

https://www.ifr-magazine.com/avionics/backing-up-gps/

[hais]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:07 PM, EricJ said:

A project in my pipeline is to make a lat/lon estimator using essentially the same hardware as a stratux.    The RTL-SDR tuner like what is used in a stratux will digitize enough bandwidth to receive all of the VOR channels simultaneously, so with some signal processing it can detect any VOR signals present and determine the radials of each, and estimate where the radials of multiple received VOR signals cross based on the known lat/lon of the identified VOR stations.   It won't be nearly as accurate as GPS, but will give you a good idea of where you are whenever there are at least two VORs in range.    I've done a bunch of development on the same hardware already, and also have a decent library of lat/lon computation stuff, so it's mostly just getting time to do it, and there are a few other projects in the pipeline ahead of it, unfortunately.

Somebody in the UK did something similar several years ago but it never got much attention, so it's not a unique idea.   It'd be a nice backup that you can run on a handheld device, or even on an existing stratux with an additional tuner.   I wouldn't be surprised if others aren't already working on the same and'll beat me to having something working, which is fine with me.

And, yeah, gps susceptibility to a variety of attacks is a real thing.   Everybody knows this, which is why all the global powers have their own system satellite navigation systems, to not be dependent on somebody else's.

I believe Rockwell Pro Line in the Premier 1 does this. 

Very cool project - I'd be interested lending a hand, DM me. And if you are talking SDR - it can be a base for new innovations down the road. How about getting ATIS in text ...

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Lower frequency, longer propagation distance with LORAN, compared to VOR which is VHF and IIUC closer to line-of-sight in terms of distance (e.g. think about airway switchover, etc). 

eLoran can also be much higher transmit power, which is where a lot of the range comes from.   The high-volume VORs are 100-200 Watts, while eLoran is sometimes in the megaWatt range and I think up to 4MW.   

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

"Only" the 30mm cannon, bombs, and rockets. 

I just had to point out that's kind of funny. 

Glad you got the sarcasm and irony.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, toto said:

Yep. We would have problems relying on VOR or VOR/DME when the minimum operational network is all that’s left - especially below airline altitudes.

I think one of the advantages of LORAN is that it requires a relatively small number of transmitters along the coast to get enroute navigation across the continental US.

DME/DME would be fairly easy as the transmitters are small and don't need a lot of space or setup.  My point is that VOR/VOR is simply a software upgrade to any navigator that has VOR in it.  Adding DME would be new versions or an external box, plus software.  Even implemented on a tablet would be nice, but no reason it cannot be a separate DME unit feeding the data to the navigator and a software update to use that data.  Maybe not perfect, but doable for fairly low cost and no having to change out existing installations.

eLORAN would be great, but the cost to implement would be very high.  The stations are not cheap.

I had not considered using the different sat systems.  That would add even more. capability.  So we need an external box with DME receiver and GNOSS and other capability and some upgrades to our existing navigators.

[jlunseth]

A few years ago a Warthog came to KFCM in preparation for the annual airshow. He got permission from the tower to do a low pass over the runway. The pilot was grinning, I know he was, I saw it.

[Pinecone]

I know I grinned a lot flying them.  FUN airplane.  Especially in the 80s where everything was low level. 

[dkkim73]

36 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I know I grinned a lot flying them.  FUN airplane.  Especially in the 80s where everything was low level. 

I think it might be the most under-appreciated (modern) platform in the AF, from the outsider's viewpoint. All single-seat, so I have no more direct knowledge as weight and balance type airman. But I loved watching them fly alongside (MH-47G) or in airshows. The wing and robust design and "skin in the game" mission were so compelling post-2001. Hats off to you for serving in one. The few warthog drivers I met were all-in. 

The Eagle is howeverthe best airplane *ever*, just to be clear, just in case you were thinking I was getting all soft and whatnot....  

 

[MikeOH]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:48 PM, dkkim73 said:

"Only" the 30mm cannon, bombs, and rockets. 

I just had to point out that's kind of funny. 

LOL! I had the same thought.

Imagine 'only' 65 of the round on the left (the one on the right is a 30-06 round) hitting you per SECOND...

Pretty sure you wouldn't care too much about the last 64