Let the games begin - MAJOR Avionics Upgrade.

[ArtVandelay]

I didn't go back and re-read the entire thread, but I'm curious what the 6 connections are connected to.  Do you know them off the top?

The GTN takes 2 connections and he has both 650 and 750.
345R (ADSB)
Aera 760

Other possibilities:
JPI (should be connected to GTNs)
WX500 if he has one.

[Z W]

Just one data point, but the START POWER ON annunciator came out of our panel redo inop, along with most of the other warning lights in the annunciator strip.  I believe the only ones that still light up on test are the GEAR DOWN, GEAR UNSAFE, and ALT AIR.

[Marc_B]

@Z W I have Start Power in the annunciator strip that stopped working with install and it was a blown fuse.  Fortunately this was easily found and accessible under the top cowl on the pilot's side.  The fuse holder was even labeled STARTER (circled in yellow in the pic below).  Check your electrical schematic to get an idea of where it is, what the wire is numbered and what fuse it has.

Also, International Avionics Inc (IAI) can customize your annuniciator for you if needed.  I had a two row annunciator and it didn't fit in radio stack with the larger GMC507 control unit for the GFC500 AP.  They pared down the annunciator to only the indications that I still needed.  A few of the indications (i.e. gear which needs 2 indications) are required to have multiple flags per POH/TCDS.  So you have to confirm with your A&P what is still needed or not.

[Marc_B]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:02 AM, Pinecone said:

I am getting rid of the annunciator strip for two reasons.  1)  Stack room.  2)  Over half of them will be no longer needed with the Garmin EIS and such.  We are trying to figure out of the Start Power is required.  If not, the only things left are Gear and Alt Air.  And the 2 gear lights become one split one.

I would have thought that the Start Power indication was needed so that you'd know about stuck starter and shut down immediately.  So I'd think even if you don't need it you may still want it.

I think that you're already starting with a single row annunciator...mine was a dual row with lots of unused indications.  I wish there was a company who'd make programmable LED annunciators for certified aircraft!  For me, getting a pared down custom annunciator from IAI was the cleanest look.  Probably not the cheapest.  But when all is said and done it allowed me to keep the annunciator in the radio stack with the GMC507.  I think it would have been harder to cleanly add the lights/indications I needed otherwise (i.e. with placarded single light units).  The other option was follow @kortopates and move the annunciator to the copilot side.

Here is my original annunciator:

Here is a mock up of the new indications:

Mounted it behind the panel so the plate would match the lettering and style of the rest of the panel (sorry couldn't find a better pic).

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Marc_B said:

 

Also, International Avionics Inc (IAI) can customize your annuniciator for you if needed.  I had a two row annunciator and it didn't fit in radio stack with the larger GMC507 control unit for the GFC500 AP.  They pared down the annunciator to only the indications that I still needed.  

What did that cost?
Did they modify your annunciator, or did they make a new one?

[Marc_B]

@PT20J about 2amu...a little pricey in my mind but I'd already bit the bullet and it was the cleanest option.  It was a new unit they built to my specs, indications, order of indications etc.

[Pinecone]

As I said, we (shop and I) are going with Eaton annunciators (LED).

They will be mounted in a row, so look like an annunciator panel, but will be individual units.  You can get all sorts of combinations with up to 4 (IIRC) indications on a single unit.

I can see the use of the Start Power, but the question was, it is listed on the TDCS and thus required or not.

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I didn't go back and re-read the entire thread, but I'm curious what the 6 connections are connected to.  Do you know them off the top?

I don't recall, but will ask and take notes next time I see the plane

[Marc_B]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I can see the use of the Start Power, but the question was, it is listed on the TDCS and thus required or not.

Pull up the TCDS and take a look.  When I was going through this I couldn't make heads or tails of indicator requirements from the TCDS; but in the POH there are some indications required in the Kinds of Operation Equipment list.  i.e. you need 2 indications for gear, not just one (floor + annunciator); fortunately many of them you get from your engine monitor/EIS and some you don't need if you've removed vacuum system.  But specifically for the start power I didn't see that.  However, that being said I think it's a good indicator to have and I'd probably keep it even it it wasn't in the TCDS.  If you find something in the TCDS mentioning annunciator post it...I'd be interested to see where you found it!

[Pinecone]

Minor update, not much happened as the tech was out sick all week.  But still on track for a mid - late March completion.

Originally quoted 8 - 10 weeks.  Work started on Jan 15, so March 11 - 25 would be on time.

[Pinecone]

Project is still on track.  Things are looking more like harnesses than lots of individual wires.

Panel layout is being worked on.

Panel will be a medium dark grey with laser etched labels, filled with white.

[bcg]

On 3/4/2024 at 8:08 PM, Pinecone said:

Project is still on track.  Things are looking more like harnesses than lots of individual wires.

Panel layout is being worked on.

Panel will be a medium dark grey with laser etched labels, filled with white.

I'm sure they have a way of doing the labels already.  When I did mine though, I powder coated the panel with a layer of white, partially baked it, coated it again with black, fully baked it and then used the laser to burn the black off and reveal the white for my labels.  It came out really clean and was, for me anyway, a lot faster than trying to color fill them.

I also did it as 2 pieces, the tan comes out separate from the black so I can remove and replace the panel without having to remove the yokes or pull the TPM cables from the engine.

Look forward to seeing your finished panel, I wish I could have done something more like what you're doing.  Mine was a huge upgrade for me though and I'd like to replace the C with a 252 or Bravo in the future so I just couldn't justify the cost.

[natdm]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:02 AM, Pinecone said:

I am getting rid of the annunciator strip for two reasons.  1)  Stack room.  ....

I was pretty sure the placement for that was because of the Y-bar behind the panel and there being next to no room up there, behind the panel. What would you put there? Or is the top of the 750 narrow enough to fit there?

[Pinecone]

The annunciator panel is staying.  The fancy lights were $900.  EACH.  Nope.

Not sure how they are laser engraving the logos.  It may be as you said.  I will ask next week.

One big change is, I am going to a 7" G3X on the right.  One is extra inputs to them as I was maxed out with just one panel.  It is not that expensive, as it is just the display, no AHRS and other things.  Not cheap, but not the price shown on the Garmin site for a 7" G3X.  This will give someone in the right seat a full PFD/MFD, with mag heading and baro altitude.

I do lose some redundancy that the AERA 760 provided.  I will probably look into some mount setup for it.

 

[Marc_B]

11 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The annunciator panel is staying. 

FYI.  The annunciator in the aircraft has a couple complicated circuits (i.e. comparator circuits for fuel, volts), but a lot of them are simple +28V (or +14VDC).  Check out the Service Manual 24-39-06 for details.  But the simple +VDC indications were left blank and filled in by Mooney depending on how the aircraft was set up.  So these simple circuits can be wired a variety of ways and were only "changed" with the label on the face plate.

You may be able to have your shop change some of the indications.  In my case I needed to get rid of the comparator circuits and make room for more simple +VDC indications so I had to go through IAI to get one built to spec.

Start power, speed brakes, pitot heat, prop deice, and alt air are all +VDC simple inputs.  The internal wiring in the annunciator are all the same for those.

[Pinecone]

Hm, thanks.  It would be nice to move Speed Breaks to the ann panel.

I would love to have the low fuel lights, but can't do that on Certified.  Simple to do on Experimental.

 

[Rick Junkin]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Hm, thanks.  It would be nice to move Speed Breaks to the ann panel.

I would love to have the low fuel lights, but can't do that on Certified.  Simple to do on Experimental.

 

I had my shop rewire my speed brake indicator to the annunciator panel, instead of the small amber indicator lamp from the original install.

To replace the annunciator low fuel indication you can set the level for a low fuel warning on the G3X that pops up a red CAS message on the PFD with an audio alert. I think the tank fuel quantity indication also turns red, but I'd have to check that. You can set it to alert at the same point as the OEM lights. It's done in the G3X configuration mode, which you can easily get to for customizing your alerts and warnings. Your installer can show you how and where to do it, or you can reference the experimental G3X Touch installation manual available on the Garmin web site for the details. You can also add colored tic marks to your EIS gauges to mark your "standard" settings or temps for a quicker visual crosscheck. The STC requires the POH values be used for the white/green/yellow/red ranges on the required indicators, but you can put tic marks and alert/warning limits wherever you want them. The CAS capabilities are  really great because you can tailor them for exactly what you want to see and when you want to see it. I liked the ability to set limits on my JPI 830, but the G3X PFD CAS messages are head and shoulders above that.

Cheers,
Junkman

[Marc_B]

The warnings and annunciations for certified aircraft issues baffle me.  They make an LED bar that you can program that's thin and would be easy to mount above a glass panel but it's for experimental.  @Pinecone I'm sorry your original plan didn't work out.  The annunciator turned out to be the biggest hiccup for me and my shop as well...

I spoke with IAI (they make all the annunciators for Mooney) when I went through this and thought that with my SN they could pull up the schematic for that unit...but they just have default 8 and 16 indication set ups for either 14 or 28VDC.  They don't have your specific pin out (neither IAI nor I realized this at start).  It then made sense why the Mooney Service Manual (MSM) called out some of the indications but didn't mention anything about the others, instead just mentioning "Typical Positive Apply" which was just basic +28VDC input (I have a 28V aircraft).  I guess this gave Mooney latitude to customize the legend and wire up the box depending on how they set up the aircraft with their trim/avionics packages.  Remote RNAV, LORAN cpld, Boost Pump, speed brake, Prop deice, pitot heat...those were labeled and wired by Mooney and are all basic "Typical Positive Apply".

Even some of the more complicated indications are simple +28VDC inputs...i.e.  "Hi/lo Vac" is wired to accept two +28VDC inputs where one indication (lo vac) flashes, and the other is steady illuminate (high vac). Meaning if you apply +28V to the pin for lo vac it will flash the indication and if you apply +28V to the pin for high vac it will be steady.

The fuel indications are the most complicated.

But you'll always find starting on the left, Gear down, gear unsafe, left fuel, right fuel...

If you go this route: 1) snag your wiring harness info from the Electrical Schematic for your SN to find pinout order, 2) read the MSM about the circuits for the indications you have in order to understand what inputs can be wired to them, 3) and whatever you do, DO NOT wire anything to the Test+ and Test- pins on the unit...these are for bench testing and not for aircraft power and they have nothing to do with the test button on the left.  Good luck!  Hopefully you'll soon have things starting to be put together then the fun starts of getting to put it all in action!

[Pinecone]

Clear as mud.

So, it should not be hard to repurpose some of the indicators, just how to get the legends and colors changed.

Prop Heat and Pitot Heat would be nice.

[Marc_B]

19 hours ago, Pinecone said:

how to get the legends and colors changed.

You could either have a custom piece made out of plastic, modify your existing, or call IAI and ask for a custom legend.  Its basically a piece of clear plastic in two layers that has holes on the ends that accept the male post that screw the unit to the panel from behind.  When you look close it's actually roughly done and basically a colored label that each light shines through...cut and stick.  (SEE MY PIC EARLIER ON THE PAGE and you can see how each indication was a cut out)

Given that LASAR sells the legends separate from the one and two row annunciators, I would imagine that IAI could easily make you a legend to your spec.  All of the indication lights are simple white incandescent bulbs.

The person I spoke with at International Avionics, Inc. was Kenneth Snowden; the main number 972/417-2820 if you go that route.  Kenneth also services IAI voltage regulators found in a handful of Mooneys.  DMax said if it was labeled IAI it needed to be sent back to IAI, so I did that at the same time as the annunciator (mine was overvolts and needed to be adjusted).

[Pinecone]

Thanks. I will give him a call.

[Pinecone]

I just talked to IAI and they can do a custom overlay to repurpose the two fuel low and the vac lights.

There is no vac system.  And the Garmin STC does not allow wiring the low fuel lights, so they would be unused anyway.

So my annunciator will be (from left to right).

Gear Down - Green

Gear Unsafe - Red

Speed Brake - Amber

Pitot Heat - Amber

Prop Hear - Amber

Start Power On - Red

Alt Air - Amber

 

[jetdriven]

The garmin EIS will have low fuel alerting that you can set. Ours is set for five or I think 7 gallons per side is Amber and then 1 gallon is red.

[Pinecone]

I just thought it would be a good idea to also have the existing low fuel lights come on, but can't.

So I will use them for other things.

 

[PT20J]

A neat feature with the G3X CAS is that it has outputs for Warning and Caution to drive external lights. You could repurpose the fuel lights in the annunciator panel for Master Caution and Master Warning.

I have a PMA 450B audio panel and I connected these G3X outputs to it so that it audibly annunciates "Master Warning" and "Master Caution" until you acknowledge the indication on the audio panel. That really gets your attention.