Pre buy inspection

[brantb]

I am in the process of getting my ppl and want to get my own plane. Obviously the looks of a mooney had me consider them, and the efficiency sold me on them. The insurance agent I talked to partially crushed my dream, but it was expected.

 

That led me to change my search from a late 70 to 80 j/k to an older one to build hours and then move to a newer plane.

 

Anyway, there is a cheap mooney on trade a plane in Indiana. From the logs it has sat for 7 years but somehow had over 100 hours put on it. 1600 hours on the engine, which is fine with me based on price, but 100 hours in 7 years leads me to expect corrosion on the cam and other issues probably not found in the recent annual.

 

Maybe I am wrong and it was a compressive annual, but I am still looking for someone with extensive knowledge of Mooney's and specifically a m20c to do a pre buy. Anyone have recommendations?

 

Thanks

[ZuluZulu]

Are you looking for someone in Indiana? If not, it’ll help to specify your location. 

[brantb]

31 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Are you looking for someone in Indiana? If not, it’ll help to specify your location. 

Yes. I guess specifically close to Indianapolis.

[A64Pilot]

Please, get your PP and fly rentals, or buy a simple airplane to build some time on first.

There is a logical reason why your insurance rate as a brand new private pilot in a complex airplane would be so high.

I’d recommend in that year that your flying a simple airplane to get your instrument ticket too, then every flight should be on an IFR flight plan and significant IMC, then your insurance will be low enough and you will be proficient enough to step up to a complex airplane, one that you can fully use now that your IFR rated and proficient.

[MikeOH]

Sorry I don't have any pre-buy recommendations.  OTOH I'm not going to tell you not to buy a Mooney!

What I will say is that my number one criterion when shopping was frequent and recent use.  So, personally I would walk away from this one based on nothing else.  With the Lycoming you are really NOT going to be able to determine the condition of the cam and lifters unless the owner lets you pull a cylinder; highly unlikely.  There is a reason the plane is low priced: YOU are assuming all the risks.  There will likely be many other annoying items that will need fixing beyond whether the engine is okay because it has sat for 7 years.  Like most things, you get what you pay for.

If you want a plane to buy and fly vs. spend a year and a bunch of money getting it up to your standards you are going to need to pay more I'm afraid.  IOW, the cost of entry is NOT where the money is going to get spent; don't cheap out up front because it is going to cost you over time.

[cliffy]

A cheap Mooney could be the most expensive Mooney you can buy.

Many have come here with tales of buying a "cheaper" Mooney even with a pre-buy and then investing $10-20,000 more

at the next annual

There is a reason why it is cheaper-  its up to YOU to find out why NOW

In this case NOTHING but a full signed off annual would suffice for a "pre-buy" and NOT by the shop the present owner has 

been using. 

Spending $3000 or so now on just the annual inspection (no servicing or repairs) will save you many thousands later. 

Find ALL of the airworthy items now and a list of the "fix later" by the guy who will sign off the books. 

With the sitting for 7 years your chances of having the cam/lifter paradigm come to light are highly enhanced.  

Then it will be upwards of $20-25,000 when it happens.  This is a roll of the dice- Do ya feel lucky? 

My mantra for 50 years in this business- Never trust anything someone selling an airplane says- Check EVERYTHING Yourself!

AND NEVER buy the first airplane you look at. Take your time and actually go out and look at Mooneys at your local airport to get 

an idea of what looks good and what looks bad.  Education before buying is your friend. 

Including the serial numbers of the engine and prop by looking at them on the airplane and comparing to what is in the log book and TCDS 

Airplanes have been sold with non compliant engine models differing from what is in the logs or TCDS

Check every switch, light, motor, control cable,  instrument and radio for proper condition and operation. 

You are not buying a 10 year old Toyota This is  A 60 YEAR OLD ANTIQUE AIRPLANE   Walk down the path of aircraft ownership  carefully

 

[brantb]

14 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

I interpreted @brantb 's comment to mean that he wanted to build time in a C in order to get his insurance rate down before moving to a J or K.

• How close are you to getting your PPL?

This is exactly it. Build time in a C so when I get a j/k the insurance will be cut in half.

 

I am not far into my training, but also not far off from being done. I am flying 2x/week now and going to move that up to 3x in January. This isn't a process I wanted to complete over the course of a year.

 

I also understand the the purchase will be the cheap part. This isn't a plane that I would be dropping 40-60k of avionics into. This would be the equivalent of the beater car a teenager drives. It is going to get me more experience and time, then sold to move on to something nicer. I am not expecting the engine to last another 1000 hours, if it lasted 2-300 I would be happy. If I were to get this plane I would get added to a waitlist for a engine rebuild because it is only a matter of time.

[M20F]

Piper Tomahawk is the answer! 

[Jsno]

N679M?  I bought a Mooney F that the cam was in bad condition.  You could check the oil.  If it is very fresh see if you can fly it for about an hour.  Take a sample and pull the filter and send it in for analysis.  Any steel in it move on.  Depending on how it was stored will determine if the cam is bad.  I am in Indy also and know that in winter with the temp and humidity changes, the cam will get moisture on it and just if not preserved or an engine dryer kept on it.  Just bought a Drybot for mine.

[1967 427]

Prior to purchasing my C, I found an incredible deal on an F.  Lucky I live in NorCal and back then I had 2 great options of places to take it for a pre purchase inspection.  The short story was “they” told me not to walk away from it, but to run.  There shouldn’t be such a thing as a beater airplane.  Sure we all start with beater cars and many kids were stranded on the side of the road, which is perfectly fine and actually a good thing.  It’s one of those life lessons, not necessarily one of those life lessons you want to learn while in the air.  You really want to know what you’re getting into from a $ perspective.  Remember what they find will be about 65% of what you will actually have to spend.

[A64Pilot]

16 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

I interpreted @brantb 's comment to mean that he wanted to build time in a C in order to get his insurance rate down before moving to a J or K.

I got that.

I also understand that a gear up will total this C, and that will be one less C in existence, every day the fleet dwindles. I’d like to see the rate slow down. A LOT of people love and cherish their C, nothing wrong with one, pretty easy to argue the advantages actually.

Training and experience will slow that rate. There is a reason insurence rates for the young AND the old are as high as they are. 

I know younger people now even more than ever desire immediate satisfaction, but really is one year to gain experience and training really to much to ask?

Maybe two if the desire is Commercial / Instrument although personally I don’t see the need to be Commercial before buying a Mooney, but do think it ought to be an eventual goal.

A kids first car shouldn’t be a 911, even an old one.

Besides I can almost guarantee you that what WILL happen is that he will buy this cheap Mooney and in the first year get to fly it very little because it will live in the shop and both not be available but also eating up the funds that he could use to fly. IF he has enough money he will then be paying for a rental AND fixing his Mooney, but as he’s balking at the insurence rate for a newer J/K it’s likely he doesn’t have those kinds of funds.

The really big difference between a beater car is you’re allowed to fix it yourself, and you can use coat hanger wire to tie the exhaust up etc. But you can’t a Certified airplane, it must be maintained by a Certified mechanic and to a set of standards. Yes I know there is sloppy work out there, but it’s not legal.

[philiplane]

There is a 50/50 chance of a cam problem, or maybe less, depending on a couple of factors. One is the age of the cam, was it new, or re-ground at the last overhaul? Re-grinds tend to rust more easily. And if was a new cam, what year was it? We seem to have forgotten how to make quality metal parts. Cams made from the 1960's through about 1990 seem to last forever. After that, they rust easily. After 2011, it's even worse. 

And cam problems never result in instantaneous failure. They wear down over time and the affected cylinder gets a little less lift, so it slowly makes less power. Yes, you do have to split the case to fix this, but that would be less than a third of the price of an overhaul. 

If the plane makes sense to buy in every way, but the unknown status of the cam would make or break the purchase, pay the mechanic six hours to pull and re-install one cylinder. You'll be able to get a complete view of the inside of the engine. Pull a magneto first, because if you see lots of rust on the gears inside, the odds are that\ the cam will look the same. If you see nice clean surfaces, the odds are the cam will be fine. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by philiplane

[Jsno]

Other factors to look at as well is the condition of the nose gear truss.  Is it bent?  Spar corrosion is a big factor too.  Open all wing panels and inspect.  Also pull the carpet and padding in the interior and look for corrosion.  Open the interior at the wing roots and look for blue fuel stains as well as in the wing and gear wells.  When was the tanks last sealed?  Very labor intensive to strip and seal.  How old are the landing gear shock discs?  Do all of the avionics work? Auto pilot work? Is the brake system leaking fluid?  Have you inspector swing the gear and also do a breaker check.  Check flight control rigging with rigging boards. A mis-rigged Mooney flys slow. All of these add up.

[A64Pilot]

My experience with cams is once they start wear is pretty rapid, not one flight certainly, but if I had to put a number on it less than 10 hours from start until it’s bad enough to make the engine rough and of course down on power.

I also believe that an oil filter inspection will tell more than an oil analysis, but neither will detect an impending failure only one that’s begun.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I would recommend renting until you get your instrument rating.  Owning an airplane is a part time job and maintenance can really cut into flying, and if this plane has sat for a while you can expect lots of maintenance for a year or two, and I’m not talking about the camshaft,  I’m talking you tachometer takes a dump or your attitude indicator, radio etc.  And they aren’t going to happen all at once so you can efficiently have them addressed.  Based on the lack of availability of mechanics that could mean it spends as much time in the shop as available to fly.   Planes accrue maintenance even when they sit.  So if this one sat for years you can expect years of extra maintenance in the next couple years. 
 

There are also substantial transaction costs when purchasing an aircraft. Prebuy, Sales tax etc.  You are also going to pay a lot more for insurance even for a C with low time and not Instrument ticket.  
 

If this is a bare bones C model it might not be a good instrument trainer in which case you’ll have to rent to continue your training.  
 

A lot of negatives to your plan but it’s up to you ultimately.  You don’t have to do things the easiest or cheapest way.   I’m just trying to give you some realistic expectations.  

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

 

I also understand that a gear up will total this C, and that will be one less C in existence, every day the fleet dwindles. 

⬆️⬆️⬆️ This.

Please don’t kill another M20C while trying to gain experience.  That’s what Piper Arrows are for.

[brantb]

4 hours ago, Jsno said:

N679M?  I bought a Mooney F that the cam was in bad condition.  You could check the oil.  If it is very fresh see if you can fly it for about an hour.  Take a sample and pull the filter and send it in for analysis.  Any steel in it move on.  Depending on how it was stored will determine if the cam is bad.  I am in Indy also and know that in winter with the temp and humidity changes, the cam will get moisture on it and just if not preserved or an engine dryer kept on it.  Just bought a Drybot for mine.

That is the one.

 

Still looking for a recommendation for someone to do a pre purchase inspection.

[philiplane]

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/maintenance/the-cam-problem-corrosion-failures/

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, brantb said:

That is the one.

 

Still looking for a recommendation for someone to do a pre purchase inspection.

They are giving you much more valuable information than a name and phone number.

You can direct any A&P to do your pre-buy evaluation with the information you're receiving here. The education that others have paid for is now yours. While it's nice to have a Mooney specialist look it over, I would rather learn all about the things to look for that owners have later found and paid for with their hard-earned money that was missed in their blanket "pre-buy" buy and "expert". Then I can use a good A & P to do "my" pre-buy looking at the things I have found important. Big things first, if we find a deal-breaker, pre-buy is over and I owe the A & P for the hourly rate we agreed upon. I don't want him checking light bulbs.

[brantb]

12 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

They are giving you much more valuable information than a name and phone number.

You can direct any A&P to do your pre-buy evaluation with the information you're receiving here. The education that others have paid for is now yours. While it's nice to have a Mooney specialist look it over, I would rather learn all about the things to look for that owners have later found and paid for with their hard-earned money that was missed in their blanket "pre-buy" buy and "expert". Then I can use a good A & P to do "my" pre-buy looking at the things I have found important. Big things first, if we find a deal-breaker, pre-buy is over and I owe the A & P for the hourly rate we agreed upon. I don't want him checking light bulbs.

Very true, and I am thankful for the information. While the engine is a concern, I specifically did ask how many hours it has been ran in the last month/6months/year. Running it during the pre buy and hopefully being able to put some hours on the engine will mitigate that worry somewhat.

 

The other big things are corrosion around the spars, and then I need to do some more searching about the fuel leaking around the selector.

[hammdo]

Running is not the same as flying it. Running does not get the oil temps high enough to burn off condensation. Keep that in mind…

-Don

[brantb]

I called yesterday to set up a time to have it checked out and there was an offer earlier that morning.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, brantb said:

I called yesterday to set up a time to have it checked out and there was an offer earlier that morning.

The next time get an offer accepted, subject to pre-buy. Unless you agree on a price there's no reason to schedule a pre-buy.

[Pinecone]

On 12/11/2023 at 9:07 AM, brantb said:

This is exactly it. Build time in a C so when I get a j/k the insurance will be cut in half.

 

I am not far into my training, but also not far off from being done. I am flying 2x/week now and going to move that up to 3x in January. This isn't a process I wanted to complete over the course of a year.

 

I also understand the the purchase will be the cheap part. This isn't a plane that I would be dropping 40-60k of avionics into. This would be the equivalent of the beater car a teenager drives. It is going to get me more experience and time, then sold to move on to something nicer. I am not expecting the engine to last another 1000 hours, if it lasted 2-300 I would be happy. If I were to get this plane I would get added to a waitlist for a engine rebuild because it is only a matter of time.

 

I would talk to Parker about the numbers.  You may find that there is not a huge difference between insuring a C and a J.   

Buy your last airplane first.

 

[kortopates]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

If that is the case then his dream is crushed because he started this topic because he already talked to his insurance agent who put the price of insuring a J out of reach. 
 

And aren’t you overlooking the difference in hull values which are the primary driver of our current premiums?  If he finds a C for about 1/3-1/2 the cost of a J, won’t his insurance premium be about 1/2?

Very true the hull value will effect the hull insurance proportinally to its value. Liability which is much smaller percentage is likely unaffected.

But I believe the notion that purchasing a "beater" airplane, at a lower cost, translates into lower operating cost does need to br crushed. We all know purchase price was just the initiation fee into the this hobby and the real cost is in annual operating cost. There should be very little difference in maintaining a C vs J all things otherwise being equal. But we know buying a bird with a lot of deferred maintenance, or anthing that  resembles the "beater" description is probably going to the most expensive to own compared a well loved and cared for bird. Plus a younger, less worn airframe can also help. Hence why I resonate to buy the best example you can afford and also buying your last airplane first if one has any desires to upgrade.