Engine Woes

[Rotorhead]

Hey all,

My J experienced a gear-up back in December...yea nearly a year ago at this point. Extremely long and painful story short, my engine was sent out to be overhauled rather than just inspected and has come back worse than how I sent it. I'm basically at step negative 3 at this point and looking for options to get my poor Mooney back in the air sooner rather than later. 

I know the stockpile of A3B6D's are dried up, but thought it's worth at least asking; does anyone have or know of someone who has a Lyc IO-360 A3B6D case they would part ways with? I'd rather just have another engine sent out ASAP to be overhauled and back again while I get my basket case engine sorted out and eventually sell it or have it for use later on.

Appreciate any help in advance,

-KC

[Pinecone]

Think about going to an A3B6 and get rid of the dual mag.

For getting back in the air quickest, I would say order a New or Factory Reman A3B6   You would get rid of the dual mag and get the roller lifters.  Win = Win.

[Fly Boomer]

  On 11/6/2023 at 5:45 AM, Rotorhead said:

Hey all,

My J experienced a gear-up back in December...yea nearly a year ago at this point. Extremely long and painful story short, my engine was sent out to be overhauled rather than just inspected and has come back worse than how I sent it. I'm basically at step negative 3 at this point and looking for options to get my poor Mooney back in the air sooner rather than later. 

I know the stockpile of A3B6D's are dried up, but thought it's worth at least asking; does anyone have or know of someone who has a Lyc IO-360 A3B6D case they would part ways with? I'd rather just have another engine sent out ASAP to be overhauled and back again while I get my basket case engine sorted out and eventually sell it or have it for use later on.

Appreciate any help in advance,

-KC

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Can't offer any advice -- sage or otherwise -- but I would like to hear how an overhaul goes so badly that the fix is to buy another engine.

[1980Mooney]

  On 11/6/2023 at 5:45 AM, Rotorhead said:

Hey all,

My J experienced a gear-up back in December...yea nearly a year ago at this point. Extremely long and painful story short, my engine was sent out to be overhauled rather than just inspected and has come back worse than how I sent it. I'm basically at step negative 3 at this point and looking for options to get my poor Mooney back in the air sooner rather than later. 

I know the stockpile of A3B6D's are dried up, but thought it's worth at least asking; does anyone have or know of someone who has a Lyc IO-360 A3B6D case they would part ways with? I'd rather just have another engine sent out ASAP to be overhauled and back again while I get my basket case engine sorted out and eventually sell it or have it for use later on.

Appreciate any help in advance,

-KC

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Here are two that seem to be available. 
 

https://azairsalvage.com/product/lycoming-io-360-a3b6d-1173-smoh-wide-deck-200-h-p-mooney-m20j-201/
 

https://www.aviatorsmarket.com/detail/aircraft-engines-for-sale/lycoming-io-360-a3b6d-engine/3660

[1980Mooney]

  On 11/6/2023 at 5:45 AM, Rotorhead said:

Hey all,

My J experienced a gear-up back in December...yea nearly a year ago at this point. Extremely long and painful story short, my engine was sent out to be overhauled rather than just inspected and has come back worse than how I sent it. I'm basically at step negative 3 at this point and looking for options to get my poor Mooney back in the air sooner rather than later. 

I know the stockpile of A3B6D's are dried up, but thought it's worth at least asking; does anyone have or know of someone who has a Lyc IO-360 A3B6D case they would part ways with? I'd rather just have another engine sent out ASAP to be overhauled and back again while I get my basket case engine sorted out and eventually sell it or have it for use later on.

Appreciate any help in advance,

-KC

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  On 11/6/2023 at 8:06 AM, Pinecone said:

Think about going to an A3B6 and get rid of the dual mag.

For getting back in the air quickest, I would say order a New or Factory Reman A3B6   You would get rid of the dual mag and get the roller lifters.  Win = Win.

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There are a few additional issues and costs to be aware of with an A3B6 conversion :

 

 

[Rotorhead]

  On 11/6/2023 at 10:37 AM, Fly Boomer said:

Can't offer any advice -- sage or otherwise -- but I would like to hear how an overhaul goes so badly that the fix is to buy another engine.

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@Fly Boomer after 7months, I had to drive to the shop to retrieve it myself since the guy wasn't working on it at all. When it was picked up, it still hasn't been inspected but was completely torn apart and primed with washers still in place. He did no document anything and claims the company who did NDT didn't send documentation of the completed tests/ repairs. And I'm missing parts like say the camshaft...

-KC

[Pinecone]

  On 11/6/2023 at 2:06 PM, Rotorhead said:

 And I'm missing parts like say the camshaft...

-KC

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HOLY C**P.

 

[MB65E]

I wouldn’t do a roller Cam engine. Stick with diamond coated lifters. 
Factory exchange requires a basically running engine. 
Highly recommend Lycon in CA. Ken will make it right. He might even have a line on an engine from Lycoming directly and be able to take yours as a core. 
 

-Matt
 

[Rotorhead]

  On 11/6/2023 at 3:17 PM, MB65E said:

I wouldn’t do a roller Cam engine. Stick with diamond coated lifters. 
Factory exchange requires a basically running engine. 
Highly recommend Lycon in CA. Ken will make it right. He might even have a line on an engine from Lycoming directly and be able to take yours as a core. 
 

-Matt
 

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@MB65E I have to say, I think you're one of the first to say stay with the diamond lifters. What are your thoughts about it? I'm extremely neutral either way honestly.

 

-KC

[EricJ]

Another option if it fits the budget is an IO-390.    So you really have three options, IO-360-AxB6D, IO-360-AxB6, IO-390-AxB6.   

The non-dual-mag options do have some baffle/bracket changes that go with them, but it's doable.

 

 

[mhrivnak]

Air Power recently quoted me a 14 month lead time on swapping an A3B6D core for either an A3B6 or an IO-390. A more local dealer quoted 18 months.

[Fly Boomer]

  On 11/6/2023 at 2:06 PM, Rotorhead said:

@Fly Boomer after 7months, I had to drive to the shop to retrieve it myself since the guy wasn't working on it at all. When it was picked up, it still hasn't been inspected but was completely torn apart and primed with washers still in place. He did no document anything and claims the company who did NDT didn't send documentation of the completed tests/ repairs. And I'm missing parts like say the camshaft...

-KC

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Sorry you had to go through this.  That's a pretty large part to misplace.

[EricJ]

  On 11/6/2023 at 2:06 PM, Rotorhead said:

@Fly Boomer after 7months, I had to drive to the shop to retrieve it myself since the guy wasn't working on it at all. When it was picked up, it still hasn't been inspected but was completely torn apart and primed with washers still in place. He did no document anything and claims the company who did NDT didn't send documentation of the completed tests/ repairs. And I'm missing parts like say the camshaft...

-KC

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That sucks.   An acquaintance with an Arrow had a valve failure that killed a cylinder and put him AOG at a field far away from where he lives.   He left it with the local A&P, who removed the engine from the airplane and completely disassembled it...for reasons unknown.   A year later he had to get the local sheriff to go physically remove the airplane and all the pieces from the guy's shop and move it to another hangar.   He had to hire another A&P who went there and put everything back together.

Nobody should have to go through that kind of crap, but it is not unheard of, sadly. 

I'd hope that a good engine shop could inspect your case and determine whether it is okay or not.    Most engine shops have good inspection capabilities.

[Jim Peace]

  On 11/6/2023 at 9:16 PM, EricJ said:

Most engine shops have good inspection capabilities.

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they are disappearing....this whole GA maintenance thing sucks.....if anyone who reads this has a good mechanic then you are rare....

 

[Justin Schmidt]

  On 11/6/2023 at 10:45 PM, Jim Peace said:

they are disappearing....this whole GA maintenance thing sucks.....if anyone who reads this has a good mechanic then you are rare....

 

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I have a great A&P/IA...unfortunately, I did have to experience 2 horrible ones

[MB65E]

  On 11/6/2023 at 3:56 PM, Rotorhead said:

@MB65E I have to say, I think you're one of the first to say stay with the diamond lifters. What are your thoughts about it? I'm extremely neutral either way honestly.

 

-KC

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The Coated lifters have been around maybe 5-6 years now?  They are outlasting most of the roller lifters from what I have read. With the roller lifters, You’ll need to exchange the case and that gets expensive. Early Roller engines had major issues discussed by several on the thread. I’m sure I’m not the only one staying with the stock lifters. The DCLs are better than stock.  Most worthy shops will offer them as an option. Just wish they were around when I did my OH awhile back. 

-Matt
 

[PT20J]

New, rebuilt and overhauled non-turbo engines shipped from Lycoming have had roller lifters for nearly 20 years, so there is a lot of positive history with rollers. The DLC lifters have less history, but are a much less expensive alternative for a field overhaul.

[PeytonM]

Just heard from AirPower. 19 month lead time for this engine!! OMG!

[Bartman]

I have stated it many times in response to these threads since my rebuild in 2020. I got lucky and got a case for my A3B6D and since then these horror stories keep popping up. One of the recurring themes is the need for a replacement case. If I were walking into a need for rebuild today I would look to Lycoming as my first, second, and third option. 

[ragedracer1977]

  On 11/6/2023 at 11:39 PM, Justin Schmidt said:

I have a great A&P/IA...unfortunately, I did have to experience 2 horrible ones

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I’m fortunate enough to know 2 great A&Ps, one of which is an IA.  

The stories the IA could tell about crap we’ve found on my “professionally” maintained 310 are many.  Turns out spending 20-30 grand on an annual every year doesn’t buy as much as you think.

 

[Shadrach]

  On 11/6/2023 at 10:45 PM, Jim Peace said:

they are disappearing....this whole GA maintenance thing sucks.....if anyone who reads this has a good mechanic then you are rare....

 

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I know several that are currently local to my airport. One that is a forum member (Byron) just <30nm away. We have two youngsters (<45) on the field that put in notice at a local corporate flight dept and are preparing to get a repair station cert. I may start do some work for them on vintage Mooneys as things progress.

[Shadrach]

  On 11/8/2023 at 4:20 AM, ragedracer1977 said:

 The stories the IA could tell about crap we’ve found on my “professionally” maintained 310 are many.  Turns out spending 20-30 grand on an annual every year doesn’t buy as much as you think.

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Amen...much of my participation in the maintenance of my aircraft was due to repeated discoveries of poor workmanship.  I could bore someone for an hour or more with my stories. Mags timed 180 degree out of spec.. Static ports covered after instrument work etc. etc... Post mx preflight is one of the most important activities a pilot can perform. regardless of who last worked on the plane. 

[A64Pilot]

  On 11/20/2023 at 3:25 PM, Shadrach said:

I know several that are currently local to my airport. One that is a forum member (Byron) just <30nm away. We have two youngsters (<45) on the field that put in notice at a local corporate flight dept and are preparing to get a repair station cert. I may start do some work for them on vintage Mooneys as things progress.

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I don’t know why anyone would get a Repair Station certification that didn’t have to have one.

I stood up a Repair Station once, took several months, finally hired a technical writer to write the repair station manuals, a repair station is a real PIA, much easier to get your IA and just have people work under it. For general aircraft maintenance an IA can do anything a repair station can, now instruments I think is different

[Shadrach]

  On 11/27/2023 at 12:26 AM, A64Pilot said:

I don’t know why anyone would get a Repair Station certification that didn’t have to have one.

I stood up a Repair Station once, took several months, finally hired a technical writer to write the repair station manuals, a repair station is a real PIA, much easier to get your IA and just have people work under it. For general aircraft maintenance an IA can do anything a repair station can, now instruments I think is different

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One of them is an IA, the other should be soon. They already have experience in maintaining a 145 certificate. In addition to performing mechanics duties, one has years of experience as as avionics tech and has a lot of expertise repairing and installing all kinds of boxes and APs. These gents will work on small GA planes but they’re currently maintaining several turbine aircraft and likely wish to continue to maintain aircraft of that caliber.