Any opinions on this M20K 231 (N1167N)?

[oisiaa]

I'm in contact with the seller and this is my #1 pick. Does anyone know anything about this plane or have opinions? 

No ADS-B, ancient avionics. 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+231&listing_id=2408048&s-type=aircraft#

 

N1167N

Edited October 22, 2023 by oisiaa

[1980Mooney]

Are you an experienced owner of other brands of planes? - experience with turbo charged planes?  Have you previously flown or owned a Mooney?

Here are some tidbits that you can find online:

AviationDB shows that it has been owned by the same owner a long time.  Their records go back to 2000 showing it has been owned by Airscape LLC in Ashville NC the entire time.  Airscape LLC was formed in April 1997 so I assume that is when they bought it.  It also appears that the pilot associated with the LLC is 74 years old - 

The price dropped $10,000 per Hangar67

https://www.hangar67.com/aircraft/1982-mooney-m20k-231/24741

The owner was on MooneySpace once for a 10 day period in January, 2021.  He was having trouble bleeding the brakes - getting all the air out of the lines

Hangar67 and other ad shows that the engine was Remanufactured in August, 1992.  1,104 hours in 31 years = that's about 36 hours per year.   I bet the hours over the last few years have been less.  Obviously without ADS-D the owner has not been flying in controlled airspace.  Given the owners age and lack of upgraded avionics it probably was a bit of a hangar queen.  If you are needing to borrow to make the purchase I doubt that you can get a loan with an engine that old.  

http://www.karlssonaviation.us/2022/07/1982-mooney-231-m20k/

No damage history shows up online.

No mention about tank reseal.  It mentions Corrosion X treatment now but what about the last 30 years?   Look for signs of corrosion - on the steel frame and steel push tubes/control rods/landing gear and all the internal aluminum wing members/spars.

I looks good in the pics.  But budget for an overhaul and a panel upgrade.  Others can chime in but I bet you will spend a min. of $40K on the panel.  And on the engine, my experience is only with the Lycoming 4 and big bore Continental but I know that it is not cheap to overhaul the TSIO-360.  Continental factory prices have skyrocketed in the last couple years.  This is just a guess but I bet you need to budget at least $50 - 60K for the engine and accessories/turbo/hoses/etc.  Add another $10 -15K if the tanks start to leak.  Also if the engine is that old I bet the prop is too.  Budget another $5K for prop overhaul. 

So you probably want to budget $90K on the low side and be ready to spend $120K on the high side - that is in addition to the purchase price.

Don't forget cost of hangar and insurance. - and fuel and annual......

 

[RoundTwo]

This isn’t proof of anything, but it’s a great conversation starter.

[tmo]

Not exactly about this particular plane, but I'd start with a list of things "my plane" must have - either already installed and working fine, or with a known estimate of cost to install, and go from there. My list of "options" started with a WAAS GPS, a working, coupled autopilot, and an engine monitor. The plane I ended up buying had the first two already installed, and I had an estimate of cost to install an EDM900, which I promptly purchased and have been getting the runaround about installation ever since (IOW, be careful when planning). No corrosion / sound airframe was a non-negotiable starting point.

I'm not sure I'd spend $140k on a plane you'll need to drop another $10k on immediately, for ADS-B; I'd argue for TKS over LR tanks (the stock 72USG is enough for me) but that probably is too much to ask of a M20K you want to buy now (although there was one with TKS for sale in Germany, I think, not too long ago, see: https://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=57426).

Edited October 22, 2023 by tmo
wrong Planecheck URL posted; updated to a TKS equipped plane

[oisiaa]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Hangar67 and other ad shows that the engine was Remanufactured in August, 1992.  1,104 hours in 31 years

 

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

This is just a guess but I bet you need to budget at least $50 - 60K for the engine and accessories/turbo/hoses/etc. 

Thanks for the writeup, I was planning on an eventual panel upgrade (~2 years after purchase), but I wasn't expecting to worry about an overhaul for a number of years. I thought TBO was 1,800 hours on the TISO-360. Are you saying you'd think this plane would need $50-60k on the engine up front or in 600-800 hours from now?

Fortunately, the prop is brand new with 0 time since it was hung in 2021....the lack of recent flying is concerning from an engine standpoint. 

This would be my first plane. I'm an experienced military pilot with little-to-no GA experience. 

[RoundTwo]

2 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

 

Thanks for the writeup, I was planning on an eventual panel upgrade (~2 years after purchase), but I wasn't expecting to worry about an overhaul for a number of years. I thought TBO was 1,800 hours on the TISO-360. Are you saying you'd think this plane would need $50-60k on the engine up front or in 600-800 hours from now?

Fortunately, the prop is brand new with 0 time since it was hung in 2021....the lack of recent flying is concerning from an engine standpoint. 

This would be my first plane. I'm an experienced military pilot with little-to-no GA experience. 

Our GA engine don’t usually wear out, they usually rust out from lack of use. If this plane has as little flying time as appears, my fear is that the engine is most likely toast. Time wise, an overhaul is a very long process now due to parts availability and a factory rebuild is much quicker, but you’d probably be looking at $60k-$70k for the engine plus R&R labor.

 

[tmo]

Does a factory rebuild include the turbo and all the ancillaries? Surely some extra money would be needed to re-fit the aftermarket wastegate and intercooler, too.

[oisiaa]

I'm looking through the logs and this plane has a grand total of 13 hours on the tach since 2002...

It had a "ferry flight in 2021" and hasn't flown since then, but is sitting on a current annual.

It had a lot done in 2021 to return it to flying status. Brand new prop, 3 new tires, sealed fuel tank(s?), new pucks. 

I'd guess that the work done in 2021 was the bare minimum to make it airworthy and a pre-buy exam would likely show the 20 years of sitting.

Thoughts?

 

[ttflyer]

Our Mooney has 4200 hours on it over 35 years of life.  This was a MAJOR selling point for me.  That's over 100 hours a year - the sweet spot for keeping things working and the engine in good shape.  13 Hours in 20 years would be a run don't walk away for me...

[Pinecone]

The good news is you can have the lifters pulled as part of a pre-buy and see how the internals look.  Continental cam is below the crank, so get some oil dripped on it.  But lifters can pit.  

I had the lifters pulled during the pre-buy on my plane.  The internals were good, but the lifters were bad.  The seller supplied new ones.

But my first impression is a bit high with the panel and the engine.  But a good basis if you can get it for a better price.

A factory reman is about $75,000 these days.  A factory new engine is only $80,000. 

A lot of options for the panel for a couple of G-5s or GI-275 and a GTN-650 to a full glass.  Figure full Garmin glass with GTN and new autopilot to be in the $70,000+ range.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, oisiaa said:

 

Thanks for the writeup, I was planning on an eventual panel upgrade (~2 years after purchase), but I wasn't expecting to worry about an overhaul for a number of years. I thought TBO was 1,800 hours on the TISO-360. Are you saying you'd think this plane would need $50-60k on the engine up front or in 600-800 hours from now?

Fortunately, the prop is brand new with 0 time since it was hung in 2021....the lack of recent flying is concerning from an engine standpoint. 

This would be my first plane. I'm an experienced military pilot with little-to-no GA experience. 

Not that TBO matters if it is being flown regularly, but TBO on that engine is 1800 hours or 12 years, whichever comes first. 

The prop was hung in 2021, 3 years ago, and the internals could be subject to corrosion just from sitting for three years.

[GeeBee]

As said, engine can be easily inspected for corrosion and beyond that the usual data points. Don't be surprised at needing replacement.

Panel needs to go, so budget accordingly

All that is left is make sure the airframe is not corroded or bent. 

Could be a fun little restoration to greatness if you can price out the warts.

 

 

[Steve Dawson]

The engine has 1100 hours on it so if there is anything shown in the pre-buy an IRAN to the engine may help out with the cost. Definitely needs a pre-buy to get an honest assessment of the engine. 

[tmo]

Then there's this: https://mooneyspace.com/topic/46857-79-231-1400-tt-899-smoh-49900/

Pay $50k, spend another $100k to make it yours.

[oisiaa]

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.

I'm not looking for a project plane and I don't necessarily think that this is one, but a pre-buy will be essential to determine that.

My plan would be to at the minimum install GNX 375 for ADS-B and GPS and probably a GI 275 for reliable air data/attitude right away. I might be happy with that long-term or go for a full $60k panel upgrade after 2-3 years.

I'm not emotionally invested in this going through and will happily walk away if a pre-buy is marginal....I'm not committed to making an offer at this point either. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, oisiaa said:

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.

I'm not looking for a project plane and I don't necessarily think that this is one, but a pre-buy will be essential to determine that.

My plan would be to at the minimum install GNX 375 for ADS-B and GPS and probably a GI 275 for reliable air data/attitude right away. I might be happy with that long-term or go for a full $60k panel upgrade after 2-3 years.

I'm not emotionally invested in this going through and will happily walk away if a pre-buy is marginal....I'm not committed to making an offer at this point either. 

I think your plan is sound.    The pre-buy should include a thorough engine inspection to try to determine whether or how badly the lack of use has affected it.

I'd suggest not even putting in a GI-275 until you get some time on it and see what sorts of things work well or not, and whether that time and money might be better spent somewhere else.     You may determine that it makes more sense to put in a glass panel or take some other route, and it'll also give you time to determine what makes sense or not.

Just putting in a reasonable GPS is going to be some $$, and is pretty intrusive to the panel.   If you're okay with flying off a tablet or with radio nav, you might defer that as well and get other things done at the same time as the GPS and take advantage of having the panel open and perhaps integrating other things with the GPS at the same time (display, etc.).

Other than having sat for a long time and having old-ish avionics, if stuff works reasonably well and the engine isn't in bad shape, it looks like it could be a very nice airplane.   Expect latent issues due to the lack of use, though.   A thorough corrosion inspection will be needed as well.

[1980Mooney]

33 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.

I'm not looking for a project plane and I don't necessarily think that this is one, but a pre-buy will be essential to determine that.

My plan would be to at the minimum install GNX 375 for ADS-B and GPS and probably a GI 275 for reliable air data/attitude right away. I might be happy with that long-term or go for a full $60k panel upgrade after 2-3 years.

I'm not emotionally invested in this going through and will happily walk away if a pre-buy is marginal....I'm not committed to making an offer at this point either. 

Are you paying cash or borrowing money for the purchase?  There are previous discussions here that point out that banks will not loan money on a plane with the engine past TBO.  This engine is not over in hours flown but way past in calendar age.  You point out that it basically sat for 20 years without flying.  All the elastomers, seals, hoses will be deteriorating, getting brittle or cracking.  Don't forget the engine mounts too.

 

A TSIO-360 that has been sitting that long will likely run.  But depending on cylinder walls you may see the cylinders decline pretty fast.  You will be looking at a Top Overhaul.  I bet it costs $3K per cylinder to overhaul a single cylinder using an old cylinder that has been refurbished.

This is a great article regarding the TSIO-360 by one of the most knowledgeable shops from 2010.  Prices are up at least 80% since then.  Also look at the other threads below - look at the dates because Continental parts prices are up about 15% in the last 2 years so everything is higher.   

See the AirPower engine cost - $76K for a Rebuilt and that is after getting back $19K for your old engine.

Aircraft Spruce wants $17K for the "Top Overhaul" kit - new cylinders, pistons, rings, etc.  Add labor - $4-5.5K maybe  Call it $22K.  That is a lot to spend on a crankcase that was last touched 31 years ago.

https://knr-inc.com/shop-talk-articles.html?id=21:201012-flying-a-360&catid=25

Your engine is a TSIO-360LB1

https://www.airpowerinc.com/tsi0360lb1br

https://shop.boeing.com/medias/0285.pdf?context=bWFzdGVyfHBkZnwxMDUzMzg1fGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL3BkZnxwZGYvaDc4L2gxMS84ODE0MDcxNzQyNDk0LnBkZnwwYTkxOWRlODRjYzEwMmRmODBjMDkzNWEyODI3MWFjMzdkZTc5ZjBlY2VmODdhZjM3YWRkNmU2MjQ0MWYxNTAz&attachment=true

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/continentalnewtopoh_07-12580.php

 

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, oisiaa said:

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.

I'm not looking for a project plane and I don't necessarily think that this is one, but a pre-buy will be essential to determine that.

My plan would be to at the minimum install GNX 375 for ADS-B and GPS and probably a GI 275 for reliable air data/attitude right away. I might be happy with that long-term or go for a full $60k panel upgrade after 2-3 years.

I'm not emotionally invested in this going through and will happily walk away if a pre-buy is marginal....I'm not committed to making an offer at this point either. 

Another thing - What is your "mission"?  Unless you plan on flying high or routinely are working from high altitude airports, then a "J" model will have basically the same performance at way less cost  to maintain the engine.  Lycoming IO-360 with 4 vs 6 cylinders for the Cont. TSIO-360. No turbo and 2 less cylinders to cook.

 

[oisiaa]

28 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Another thing - What is your "mission"?  Unless you plan on flying high or routinely are working from high altitude airports, then a "J" model will have basically the same performance at way less cost  to maintain the engine.  Lycoming IO-360 with 4 vs 6 cylinders for the Cont. TSIO-360. No turbo and 2 less cylinders to cook.

 

Mission is California to Oklahoma/Iowa/Wisconsin 2-3x per year (and back obviously), plus hopefully at least an hour per week on the weekends.

I like the idea of a turbo and flying high...the only real issue is we have two dogs and don't know how to get them on oxygen so we'd likely be staying at non-O2 levels until they croak. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by oisiaa

[Aerodon]

Trust me, I have bought planes like this.  If you can't get your head around paying for an engine in the next year, then don't do it.   And if it's not priced accordingly, don't do it.  An unused engine like this is a can of worms.  Hoses need replacing.  Lifters corrode.  Cams corrode. Cranks corrode.  Turbos don't like standing.  Mags need regular maintenance etc.  Injection systems clog up.  Seals fail, diaphragms fail.

A PPI (pre purchase inspection) can only tell you so much.  You will get airborne and then things will start to fail,  You'll be spending $2k here, $5k there, $25 k everywhere and still have an 'old engine'.

I'm not saying don't buy it - get a PPI done on th airframe for corrosion, fuel tanks, accident history, AD's etc.  Enough inspection on the engine to be assured it gets through an annual.  Value the plane with a time expired engine, any hours you get will be a bonus.  Be prepared for big $$ on the engine overhaul and budget 9 months of downtime and about $10-20k on the installation.  And then the avionics budget - radios don't like standing either, capacitors dry out, corrosion destroys boards etc.

There is a reason people buy planes like this - you get a nice looking plane, new prop, new engine, new avionics and then fly it for the next 10 years and still have something valuable to sell.

If you are not a 'project person' with the knowledge of how to deal with maintenance and avionics shops, this is not the plane for you. There have been similar planes discussed here in the $50-100k range.  And their buyers have shared their progress and pictures getting them back to pristine condition.  I'm doing the same on my 252.  But we start from a wholesale price, assuming engine core value and eyes wide open on avionics costs.

If you think that a good PPI is going to eliminate the risk, I think you are mistaken.  We have also sadly watched other buyers go through the process of discovering corrosion so bad that their airless are writen off despite a PPI.  And engines with less than 500 hrs needing another overhaul.

Aerodon

 

 

 

[oisiaa]

11 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Trust me, I have bought planes like this.  If you can't get your head around paying for an engine in the next year, then don't do it.   And if it's not priced accordingly, don't do it.  An unused engine like this is a can of worms.  Hoses need replacing.  Lifters corrode.  Cams corrode. Cranks corrode.  Turbos don't like standing.  Mags need regular maintenance etc.  Injection systems clog up.  Seals fail, diaphragms fail.

A PPI (pre purchase inspection) can only tell you so much.  You will get airborne and then things will start to fail,  You'll be spending $2k here, $5k there, $25 k everywhere and still have an 'old engine'.

I'm not saying don't buy it - get a PPI done on th airframe for corrosion, fuel tanks, accident history, AD's etc.  Enough inspection on the engine to be assured it gets through an annual.  Value the place with a time expired engine, any hours you get will be a bonus.  Be prepared for big $$ on the engine overhaul and budget 9 months of downtime and about $10-20k on the installation.  And then the avionics budget - radios don't like standing either, capacitors dry out, corrosion destroys boards etc.

There is a reason people buy planes like this - you get a nice looking plane, new prop, new engine, new avionics and then fly it for the next 10 years and still have something valuable to sell.

If you are not a 'project person' with the knowledge of how to deal with maintenance and avionics shops, this is not the plane for you. There have been similar planes discussed here in the $50-100k range.  And their buyers have shared their progress and pictures getting them back to pristine condition.  I'm doing the same on my 252.  But we start from a wholesale price, assuming engine core value and eyes wide open on avionics costs.

If you think that a good PPI is going to eliminate the risk, I think you are mistaken.  We have also sadly watched other buyers go through the process of discovering corrosion so bad that their airless are writen off despite a PPI.  And engines with less than 500 hrs needing another overhaul.

Aerodon

 

 

 

Valuable inputs, thank you.

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, oisiaa said:

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.

I'm not looking for a project plane and I don't necessarily think that this is one, but a pre-buy will be essential to determine that.

My plan would be to at the minimum install GNX 375 for ADS-B and GPS and probably a GI 275 for reliable air data/attitude right away. I might be happy with that long-term or go for a full $60k panel upgrade after 2-3 years.

I'm not emotionally invested in this going through and will happily walk away if a pre-buy is marginal....I'm not committed to making an offer at this point either. 

Maybe look at putting an Aspen 1000 in.

Update later to 2000 or 2500.   They tend to have some great Oshkosh deals.

[1980Mooney]

26 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Trust me, I have bought planes like this.  If you can't get your head around paying for an engine in the next year, then don't do it.   And if it's not priced accordingly, don't do it.  An unused engine like this is a can of worms.  Hoses need replacing.  Lifters corrode.  Cams corrode. Cranks corrode.  Turbos don't like standing.  Mags need regular maintenance etc.  Injection systems clog up.  Seals fail, diaphragms fail.

A PPI (pre purchase inspection) can only tell you so much.  You will get airborne and then things will start to fail,  You'll be spending $2k here, $5k there, $25 k everywhere and still have an 'old engine'.

I'm not saying don't buy it - get a PPI done on th airframe for corrosion, fuel tanks, accident history, AD's etc.  Enough inspection on the engine to be assured it gets through an annual.  Value the place with a time expired engine, any hours you get will be a bonus.  Be prepared for big $$ on the engine overhaul and budget 9 months of downtime and about $10-20k on the installation.  And then the avionics budget - radios don't like standing either, capacitors dry out, corrosion destroys boards etc.

There is a reason people buy planes like this - you get a nice looking plane, new prop, new engine, new avionics and then fly it for the next 10 years and still have something valuable to sell.

If you are not a 'project person' with the knowledge of how to deal with maintenance and avionics shops, this is not the plane for you. There have been similar planes discussed here in the $50-100k range.  And their buyers have shared their progress and pictures getting them back to pristine condition.  I'm doing the same on my 252.  But we start from a wholesale price, assuming engine core value and eyes wide open on avionics costs.

If you think that a good PPI is going to eliminate the risk, I think you are mistaken.  We have also sadly watched other buyers go through the process of discovering corrosion so bad that their airless are writen off despite a PPI.  And engines with less than 500 hrs needing another overhaul.

Aerodon

Hangar67 says that it has actively been for sale at Karlsson Aviation for 459 days during a hot market.  I wonder how many Pre Purchase Inspections it has already gone through.....

[RobertGary1]

5 hours ago, ttflyer said:

Our Mooney has 4200 hours on it over 35 years of life.  This was a MAJOR selling point for me.  That's over 100 hours a year - the sweet spot for keeping things working and the engine in good shape.  13 Hours in 20 years would be a run don't walk away for me...

Engines somewhat. Airframes don’t care. 

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, oisiaa said:

Thanks for all of the advice and opinions.

I'm not looking for a project plane and I don't necessarily think that this is one, but a pre-buy will be essential to determine that.

My plan would be to at the minimum install GNX 375 for ADS-B and GPS and probably a GI 275 for reliable air data/attitude right away. I might be happy with that long-term or go for a full $60k panel upgrade after 2-3 years.

I'm not emotionally invested in this going through and will happily walk away if a pre-buy is marginal....I'm not committed to making an offer at this point either. 

Don't be fooled by the nice paint and nice upholstery - this is a project plane. You could easily put the purchase price again into what it may need in the next few years. If this could be bought for $75,000 that's your only chance of not being upside down from day one.

Since it's been on the market almost a year and a half either you know something everyone else doesn't or you haven't yet reached the conclusion everyone else has.