O-360-A1D: What engine components to stockpile in anticipation of overhaul?

[DXB]

My engine is getting long in the tooth (only 1700-1800 hrs but 23+ years).  It may force my hand one day soon, and even if not, I feel like going past 25 years becomes a gamble in the absence of sufficient data.  Since new cylinders are backordered out to a year, it seems like a no brainer to get in line for four of them.  What about other engine components?  I want to orchestrate things in advance for speed and efficiency when the plane ultimately goes down for overhaul.  

[N201MKTurbo]

When I was doing my engine, bearings were hard to come by. But I wouldn’t suggest stockpiling them because you won’t know what size to buy until the crank is overhauled. 
 

The only thing I would pre order is cylinders.

You could look at the SB with all the mandatory items and start ordering them. You should see what your engine shop’s policy is on owner supplied parts.

[Ragsf15e]

I know this isn’t always popular, but it seems reasonable to check with airpower and see how much the wait and cost is on a factory rebuilt.  If you want to be fair, compare that to overhauling your engine AND all the other components since they come with the factory rebuilt.

[Hank]

It's never to soon to stockpile dollar bills. Just make sure they aren't all 1s . . . .

[cliffy]

Were your cylinders new when installed 23 years ago?

If so you might consider retaining them. First run (depending on wear) may not be a bad idea if there is a long

lead time for new ones  If not - Then the question becomes- who's cylinders do you want? 

I find it interesting that it seems the only "go to" position these days  is "buy new" when for decades we field overhauled 

4 banger Lycomings (cylinders included) without many issues. All A&Ps had to learn how to do cylinder work in school

Its not rocket science, just attention to details. Same with the bottom end.  Case goes to say Divco for any work and cert than back

to home shop to reassemble with new parts if needed. 

I guess being an A&P now a days is different than when I went through school Although I did do my own overhaul 14 years ago and its

still doing good with 1200 hrs on it since then.   Still high 70s on compression and 10-12 hrs / qt of oil. 

 

[OR75]

just make sure you store those items so they don't rust ...

from my chemistry lessons ... as soon as you make steel, it wants to go back to go back to its original ore state

[Andy95W]

Cliffy makes a great point.  If you have first run cylinders, you should definitely consider keeping them.  A good option to research is the CermiNil treatment by ECI.  Well regarded and recommended by Aviation Consumer.  None of the issues of cermichrome, and they will only Nickel treat new or first run cylinders.

Our O-360A1D engines are remarkably bulletproof, typically run nicely past TBO, and the cylinders are very reliable when overhauled.

[hammdo]

FYI:

"While ECI maintains that the new CermiNil process will work on any engine and any engine model, theres enough feedback in the field to support the idea that the coating is not recommended in Mooney aircraft, particularly the Lycoming-powered versions. But that has proven true for Mooneys with any chrome process, not just ECIs.

With the exception of ECI, most shops we’ve talked to agree that Mooneys should be topped only with steel barrels. Some also recommend that owners of the Piper Saratoga and Navajo should also avoid using CermiNil. The jury is still out on this, however, because not all agree that these engines are problematic."

From the article…

-Don

[Skates97]

7 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I know this isn’t always popular, but it seems reasonable to check with airpower and see how much the wait and cost is on a factory rebuilt.  If you want to be fair, compare that to overhauling your engine AND all the other components since they come with the factory rebuilt.

I am at about 2,200 hours and it is still running strong, excellent compressions, 1 qt every 8-10 hours, not making metal. However, having had a friend with their plane down about 8 months for their overhaul because of parts and shop delays, I started looking for a core that I could buy, have overhauled, and then swap out on my timeline. I looked for months with no success so checked with Airpower. In June it was a 12-14 month timeline and the prices I felt were reasonable considering what comes with the engine when I compare it to the total price I saw my friend pay.

In June the prices were the following:

O-360-A1D
Factory New: $72,790
Factory Rebuilt: $40,401
Factory Overhaul: $36,024

https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8042

I put the order for a Factory Rebuilt along with the $8k deposit. By the time it is ready I should be somewhere between 2,300-2,400 hours on my current pace of flying and ready to swap it out.

[A64Pilot]

About the only thing that will force you into an overhaul is one making metal.

If you choose to not do anything until it does I’d recommend you to plan on purchasing a factory overhaul, because it’s more likely than not a new cam and crank, oil pump etc will cost you just about as much, but the factory overhaul should get you independent mags, roller cam and greater resale value and all that is worth quite a bit in my opinion. Once metal starts flowing through the thing it does a lot of damage, even takes out the oil cooler

However if you choose to overhaul prior to the thing eating itself then you most probably can overhaul for less money. It’s really not uncommon if you overhaul a first run motor to not even have to turn the crank

[jetdriven]

The factory has raised their prices so much I don't know if it's such a good value anymore.  The flying club here is switching out their O360 Cardinal 177 engine out for a factory OH.  It's over 50k now. 

[A64Pilot]

13 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The factory has raised their prices so much I don't know if it's such a good value anymore.  The flying club here is switching out their O360 Cardinal 177 engine out for a factory OH.  It's over 50k now. 

That may change things then

What they had originally done was to raise parts prices in order to raise prices of field overhauls, yes I know about PMA parts, but the theory was raise field overhauls high enough and people would buy factory overhauls, keeping the factory in business of course, because sales of new engines is down, because numbers of new aircraft are down, I’d bet the majority of new Lycomings go into Experimental aircraft now, leaving I think the market open for an Experimental Lycoming knock-off, surprised tgat hasn’t happened.

I don’t think the manufacturers are trying to do anything but stay in business. If they have jacked up the prices then they have followed the general trend, but the problem is self compounding. Factory doesn’t sell enough parts, so they jack up the prices to return profitability, but it tends to actually reduce sales as many learn alternatives, repair the part, buy PWA, buy used, OPP, very often find the actual source and purchase from there etc.

I went through that as one of my jobs was product support putting spares sales in my lane and I couldn’t convince the Boss that jacking up parts prices didn’t mean he would get more money, it worked short term but soon the market adapted

[DXB]

Reviving this thread as I consider engine overhaul - I think probably will order a Lycoming factory rebuilt or overhaul for my O-360-A1D, exchanging the core. I'm heading into annual this year soon and would hope to do the swap at annual next year.   My question is, do any of the other major shops provide similar service (i.e. provide an overhauled engine with core swap)?  At first glance, places like Western Skyways, Signature, Poplar Grove?  I'm just trying to gather a bit more info before I start calling around...  @Alan Fox @jetdriven 

[Shadrach]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:06 PM, DXB said:

My engine is getting long in the tooth (only 1700-1800 hrs but 23+ years).  It may force my hand one day soon, and even if not, I feel like going past 25 years becomes a gamble in the absence of sufficient data.  Since new cylinders are backordered out to a year, it seems like a no brainer to get in line for four of them.  What about other engine components?  I want to orchestrate things in advance for speed and efficiency when the plane ultimately goes down for overhaul.  

Just as a data point. Our engine went 1800hrs and 33 years before first overhaul. We overhauled based on calendar time and a valve stem failure (thought it likely had nothing to do with time in service). Original crank and cam were still serviceable. Engine IRAN’d 10 years later due to crank case crack. Crank and cam still in excellent shape. We’re now 24yrs and 1500ish SMOH and 14 yrs and 650ish since IRAN. Engine is strong and leak free. I can see no reason to tear down in the near future for us.

If you shop around, do call Tom Schweitz. He did our IRAN when he owned Aero Engines of Winchester. He’s closer to Richmond now but I’m sure is still an excellent resource.

Valley Aircraft Services

6136 Main St

Mt Jackson, VA 22842

Email:valleyaircraftservices@gmail.com

Contact:Tom Schwietz

Phone:(540) 908-6352

 

[philiplane]

6 hours ago, DXB said:

Reviving this thread as I consider engine overhaul - I think probably will order a Lycoming factory rebuilt or overhaul for my O-360-A1D, exchanging the core. I'm heading into annual this year soon and would hope to do the swap at annual next year.   My question is, do any of the other major shops provide similar service (i.e. provide an overhauled engine with core swap)?  At first glance, places like Western Skyways, Signature, Poplar Grove?  I'm just trying to gather a bit more info before I start calling around...  @Alan Fox @jetdriven 

Certified Engine Unlimited at KHWO has a large inventory of engine cores. Allen may be able to provide you with an overhauled engine, in exchange for your core, in whatever budget you might have. I use him for several engines yearly, and his prices are comparable to anyone. Plus his service is second to none.

I wouldn't worry as much about years or hours. I maintain several engines near the 50 year mark since overhauls, and they are going strong because they've had exceptional care. No oil analysis problems, no internal corrosion as evidenced by borescope of cylinders and cams. Or course most engines haven't had the level of care that these have, but you can perform enough inspection of the internals to come up with a better idea of how soon your engine will need overhaul. 

[cliffy]

No metal in the oil, good oil pressure, good borescope, good compressions?  Fly it!

Engines don't magically eat themselves at 2,000 hrs IF taken care of properly. 

That means fly it and not let it sit for years.

At least the little 4 banger Lycomings don't eat themselves