My IA is retiring

[A64Pilot]

Oh, and nobody got their A&P through an apprenticeship program.

All it gave them was the right to take the tests.

I got my Commercial / Instrument by taking I believe it was a 50 question Military equalivency exam, no check ride, no Oral exam.

My years as a Crew Chief only gave me the right to petition to take I think it was three written tests and an Oral and Practical.

The A&P was much harder than the Pilot exam

[Fly Boomer]

23 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The Germans have it down or did if things haven’t changed, at some point, I think it may be eighth grade you track either College or Vocational, if Vocational you spend less and less time each year in the books and more and more at work, they partner with local businesses, so if being a machinist is your choice, you work at a local machine shop and do the book work at school.

And no stigma if you don't have a degree.

[SKI]

As an add on to the apprenticeship programs. I'm a machinist by trade. I went to a vocational school 11th and 12th grade. Started working 2nd semester of my senior year at a local shop. Said shop hired me after graduation and I spent 7 years with them. In school we did a lot of book work along with running machines. It barely scratched the surface of what I learned once I actually got out into the field for a year or 2. Schools of any kind can only squeeze so much information out of the time available. On the job training is invaluable, The real world differs greatly from a classroom in all the trades. I would much rather a 20 something year old A&P with a few years of actual experience working on my plane rather than someone fresh out of some fancy school. Not that the schools don't make some great mechanics but just cause you went to a school doesn't mean you are any better than someone who didn't.

[1980Mooney]

On 5/24/2023 at 5:25 PM, Will.iam said:

..as I remember my dad doing his annual and giving the neighbor a case of beer to come over and inspect his work and sign off on the annual. Thats gone in this current day culture. 

 

On 5/24/2023 at 6:41 PM, EricJ said:

There's been a big separation of the above- and underground economies in this area,.... the underground maintainer variety who remain unregistered with the airport and sometimes (maybe usually) also uninsured.  I'll fix stuff for people that I know and the occassional Mooney driver who needs something, but I'm not going to advertise because there is genuine risk involved and I don't want to work on airplanes that often, anyway.   The (growing) underground part of the maintainer population often still works on a barter economy,....

 

On 5/25/2023 at 8:10 AM, SKI said:

You are absolutely correct on that. If I was going down that A&P road to do some small scale work for friends I'm not sure how to mitigate your risk exposure, If you even could. It's really a shame our society has gone down that rabbit hole where everyone is sue happy. It's just another nail in the coffin of certified semi affordable GA. It will continue to die a slow death and the experimental market will continue to grow and that will be the future of semi affordable GA. The other side will be guys well off enough to afford a new $1M+ plane and just dropping it off, handing the keys away saying call me when it's done. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's just above the means of alot of people who would like to own and fly their own plane.

 

15 hours ago, Will.iam said:

And yet those AI’s and A&P now do not put their signatures on the line. Back then they did in the height of the litigation era as you so put it.  When i asked why they all said they do not want the liability of it now. So something has changed maybe they were just young and naïve back then or maybe they started seeing other a&p’s or even themselves get sued. . 

It was in 1978 that the FAA last toughened the rules for mechanic log entries. (FAR 43.12).  https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2014-08_a-mechanics-liability.pdf  That was in response to the "wild wild west" culture of General Aviation flying in the 60's.  I had a neighbor die in 1963 when about 10 ft of fabric came off the wing of his self maintained "on a budget" Taylorcraft.

The inspection and reporting rules for mechanics/maintainers have not changed in 45 years.

You may be right about "young and naïve".  However it seems like the biggest gripe from the posts above is that they are most upset that they can't get something for nothing.  i.e. - an inspection and certification that work was performed properly although totally unsupervised and quite frankly of unknown quality in exchange for a "case of beer - about $25 today - less then $10 back then....exactly nothing. 

As far as being a "sue happy" culture only today, how comfortable would you be going to a dentist or Lasik ophthalmologist or doctor or accountant or lawyer who was certified in exchange for a "case of beer"?  If one of your family members was harmed would you tell them to just blow it off "like the past culture" or would you advise them to sue?

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

There are tests for A&P, plus an Oral and Practical.

If you don’t have the knowledge, you won’t pass the tests, sure you can study for the writtens just like you can for the Pilot tests, but your not passing the checkride if you don’t have the Min knowledge and can fly the maneuvers.

The Oral and Practical is the mechanics checkride.

Sure there are some dummies that slip through, just as there are some pilots that do.

There has always been Apprentice programs for just about every mechanical job, machinist, electrician, welding etc. 

Having been a mechanic and welder etc my entire adult life, it’s my opinion that the school houses turn out people with decent book knowledge, but are very weak with actual skills because they haven’t developed them yet. Very often they are poor mechanics that often don’t really have the desire or aptitude

The Germans have it down or did if things haven’t changed, at some point, I think it may be eighth grade you track either College or Vocational, if Vocational you spend less and less time each year in the books and more and more at work, they partner with local businesses, so if being a machinist is your choice, you work at a local machine shop and do the book work at school.

On graduation it’s my understanding that the local business if they have the openings often offer jobs to the best of the class. It’s a win for the student and the business.

Our problem over here in my opinion is the system is geared to drive a student into debt often obtaining a four year degree that except for teaching it, there are no jobs, and there can only be just so many liberal arts instructors.

The flip side to the German system is it’s not really optional. It’s like you’re deployed to your career path. And being a tradesman and deciding you want to go to college isn’t as easy as in the US where you just apply. 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

And no stigma if you don't have a degree.

In Europe they don’t have this “everyone should be able to go to college” set up. You take exams at a young age and that pretty much dictates what you’ll be allowed to do. 

[Hank]

38 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

In Europe they don’t have this “everyone should be able to go to college” set up. You take exams at a young age and that pretty much dictates what you’ll be allowed to do. 

I'd rather be free to make the choice. Even if I make the wrong choice, it can always be changed here.

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Our problem over here in my opinion is the system is geared to drive a student into debt often obtaining a four year degree that except for teaching it, there are no jobs, and there can only be just so many liberal arts instructors.

This tied directly into my college major. There are things that I enjoy and would have excelled at with ease, but the only way I could think to earn a living with those degrees was to become a teacher. [Or had I majored in art, it's make a lot of art, sell it cheaply; find a couple of rich customers; die, then your grandchildren may become rich.]

So because I'm good with easy math [up through integral and differential calculus] and have always enjoyed taking things apart, I went into Engineering. My first job paid me well to take things apart, fix them and put them back together. Now I'm paid more well to supervise people who do that, and I help out on the hard stuff.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

In Europe they don’t have this “everyone should be able to go to college” set up. You take exams at a young age and that pretty much dictates what you’ll be allowed to do. 

But "allowed to do" still suggests that those that are held back in menial tasks are somehow less than those that go on to university.  I have read that there is no such distinction -- or at least nothing like the snobbery in this country.

[OR75]

9 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Having more allowable owner maintenance, even with a "private level" A&P is a good thing.

 

 

it is kind of a pay now or pay later type of proposition

Take AK ... where owners are allowed to do their own maintenance (just because there is no way to find a mechanic anywhere near )

if an owner wants to sell his/her aircraft, it involves practically rebuilding the whole aircraft 

But what you are talking about is really experimental vs certified.

How many takers to convert their Mooney to experimental ? 

[A64Pilot]

14 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

But "allowed to do" still suggests that those that are held back in menial tasks are somehow less than those that go on to university.  I have read that there is no such distinction -- or at least nothing like the snobbery in this country.

You know by calling them “menial tasks” that sort of displays the attitude?

I lived in Germany from 1993 until just before 1996, so it’s been long ago. It cost me money but I didn’t live on Post behind the barb wire, I lived in a little German town called Hailer as I wanted to experience Germany.

There was a rather large difference in culture, they couldn’t understand why in America it was the “Businessman” , the CEO that made the big bucks, in Germany the chief Engineer made the big bucks and was highly respected.

Of course I toured the Mercedes plant and Porsche, in the tour it was brought out that everyone in the organization, specifically the Engineering dept had spent one year on the floor assembling automobiles.

My next door neighbor and I rode bicycles, he was a Physician, who by the way made house calls, but I teased him one day that in America my neighbor would never be a Physician, he was confused and I explained that I couldn’t afford to live where Dr’s did. I think he thought that we held Physicians in a low regard or something. He did have two cars though which was not usual.

Another neighbor was from North Africa, he laid tile, but his Wife worked too which wasn’t common. But we all lived in essentially the same house in the same housing area. We would call them Apts, in Germany they were houses.

His name was Camel, not sure that’s how it was spelled but that was how it was pronounced

[A64Pilot]

4 minutes ago, OR75 said:

 

How many takers to convert their Mooney to experimental ? 

It’s not easy at all, you have to show the FAA that you have a program your pursuing like maybe an STC, then you have to have flight test plans etc and aren’t allowed to deviate from them, although I’ve put an Experimental in Marketing survey and was allowed to fly it around to display and even allow prospective customers to fly it.

But that was an actual Experimental well along into Certification

But you can’t say to hell with it, I’m going Experimental.

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I got my Commercial / Instrument by taking I believe it was a 50 question Military equalivency exam, no check ride, no Oral exam.

And how many checkrides and oral exams did you do to get your wings?  And how many each year you actively flew?

For me, USAF, UPT, it was 6 checkrides, each with an oral, plus EVERY flight was graded.

Then, there was a initial check ride in the A-10.  Then once I hit my squadron, there was a Mission Ready check, then every year there was a Instrument Checkride and a Tactical Checkride, both with orals.  So more than most CPL/IA holders.

[OR75]

32 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

It’s not easy at all, you have to show the FAA that you have a program your pursuing like maybe an STC, then you have to have flight test plans etc and aren’t allowed to deviate from them, although I’ve put an Experimental in Marketing survey and was allowed to fly it around to display and even allow prospective customers to fly it.

But that was an actual Experimental well along into Certification

But you can’t say to hell with it, I’m going Experimental.

I know it is not easy ....

but either route would mean an action form the FAA 

- make it possible for certified to become experimental

- allow certified to be maintained like an experimental ("private label A&P") 

[N201MKTurbo]

I never did the college thing. I started fixing radios when I was 5. (I’ll tell the story some time). My Dad bought this correspondence course on electronics. He never did anything with them. By the time I was 10 I had read them all cover to cover. The words didn’t mean much to me and I didn’t understand it, but the diagrams were cool. It is amazing how years later it would come back to me and I would think, “wait, I know that” I got my novice ham license when I was 11 and my advanced when I was 14. I spent my junior high and high school years fixing peoples electronics. I was very successful at it and I had no lack of work. The summer of my junior year I got a job at a TV repair place and was successful there. After my senior year, I got a job at a CB radio store that just opened near me. The owner said he couldn’t pay me, but would give me a place to work and test equipment and I could keep all the money I could make. Two months later he made me an employee because I was making more money than he was. People came from all over the southwest to have “Puddle Jumper”, the golden screwdriver work on their radios. BTW, one of our customers heard me say something about airplanes one day and asked if I would like to go for an airplane ride. I just thought he was this old retired guy that sort of worked for the gas company fixing gas meters. He spent about 4 hours a day hanging out at the shop. It turned out that he was a WWII fighter pilot and then flew for the airlines for 30 years or so. He took me up in a Cessna 150. I took off and had it straight and level. He said “aren’t you going to do anything with it?” I asked “what can I do” he said I could do anything I wanted as long as the airspeed indicator didn’t go over the red line. So I rolled it inverted and pointed the nose at the ground. When the airspeed got to the red line, I pulled the nose up to keep it on the red line. So less than 5 minutes into my first airplane ride ever, I did a split S. He said nobody had ever done that before on their first ride. Then he talked me through loops and rolls in the 150 (not an Aerobat BTW) two years later I had my private, two years after that I owned a Mooney.

I need to get back to work, so I cannot type any more.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

And how many checkrides and oral exams did you do to get your wings?  And how many each year you actively flew?

For me, USAF, UPT, it was 6 checkrides, each with an oral, plus EVERY flight was graded.

Then, there was an initial check ride in the A-10.  Then once I hit my squadron, there was a Mission Ready check, then every year there was an Instrument Checkride and a Tactical Checkride, both with orals.  So more than most CPL/IA holders.

God only knows. I flew I think it was five different airframes in flight school, so one checkride for each, then instruments of course, tactics, nights, I’m sure I’m missing one or two. Actually I know I am as there were “stage” checkrides that you took as intermediate checks. Of course to get your pick of aircraft after school you had to Ace every one as well as Ace the school tests too, half of the school was classroom instruction, half at the flight line. Every day for I’d guess 10 months? First two months were “Warrant Officer Candidate Development” I think.

In the field after school as I was dual seat PIC, full blown rides for each seat, simulator ride and instruments, every year and any time you went to a new unit, then as I was a Maintenance pilot a checkride for that two, and there was an Annual written exam. Assuming perfect weather and not doing anything else at all you could get it all done in one week, so a solid week of Orals, Checkrides and Written every year and at every PCS.

Not saying that I didn’t far exceed the requirements for a Civilian Commercial / instrument, I did, but all it took was one little pretty easy written to get it.

But I also exceeded the Civilian requirements for A&P, but all my Military experience gave me there was the right to go through all the same tests everyone else did.

Point is an A&P isn’t as trivial as some think, it’s a lot tougher than getting a license as an electrician or plumber etc.

Getting my HVAC Certification was just one written test for example and it was nothing compared to the A&P writtens.

[Will.iam]

8 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

 

It was in 1978 that the FAA last toughened the rules for mechanic log entries. (FAR 43.12).  https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2014-08_a-mechanics-liability.pdf  That was in response to the "wild wild west" culture of General Aviation flying in the 60's.  I had a neighbor die in 1963 when about 10 ft of fabric came off the wing of his self maintained "on a budget" Taylorcraft.

The inspection and reporting rules for mechanics/maintainers have not changed in 45 years.

You may be right about "young and naïve".  However it seems like the biggest gripe from the posts above is that they are most upset that they can't get something for nothing.  i.e. - an inspection and certification that work was performed properly although totally unsupervised and quite frankly of unknown quality in exchange for a "case of beer - about $25 today - less then $10 back then....exactly nothing. 

As far as being a "sue happy" culture only today, how comfortable would you be going to a dentist or Lasik ophthalmologist or doctor or accountant or lawyer who was certified in exchange for a "case of beer"?  If one of your family members was harmed would you tell them to just blow it off "like the past culture" or would you advise them to sue?

 

Advising to sue does that somehow make the doctor somehow try better to try to keep from getting sued? If so it’s not working. 
 

i had an ear infection that i went into the dr’s office for. I waited over 2 hours just to see him. They prescribed an antibiotic shot and some oral cipro pills. The shot cost $300 the pills $100 and the office visit $150. I know because i turn in my receipts to my insurance company that paid for all of it minus $50 as an office copay. One could say well you didn’t pay the insurance paid it but that just means we all paid it through higher insurance premiums. One week later i felt well enough to fly and flew to Tokyo japan then the next day to Singapore. When i landed my ear infection came back and by the next morning i went down to the hotel lobby and asked where i could go to see a dr that would accept a foreigner. They pointed me to a clinic across the street. I walked in without an appointment and asked the lady behind the desk for a dr. She told me to go into the room to the right. I assumed it was the waiting room but when i opened the door there was a man behind the desk that asked what he could help with? I said i needed to see a dr about and ear infection. He pulled out an otoscope looked into my ear and said yes you have an ear infection. He wrote me a prescription and then said go pay the girl at the desk. I walked back out and handed her the prescription she read it opened up a refrigerator and gave me a bottle of liquid cipro ear drops and said that will be 47 sing! I said do you take US dollars? She said yes and said that would be $35! I said for the office visit or the ear drops? She said both. Unbelievable!  I said hold on i have to talk to the dr again and she said sure. I said doc i just had this same ear infected in the US and it cost $550 and i had to wait 2 hours before i even got to see anybody then i had to goto another store and wait 45 mins to get the prescription filled. I said how do you do this so much cheaper? He said we do not have lawsuits like you have in the states. And the cipro is a generic from Taiwan where if you have a side effect or die from it i doubt you could sue them for it. If you think that is cheap, if you were a citizen of Singapore you would be reimbursed 80% or 50% from our health care system depending on if you are rich or poor which is determined if you own house or rent. Those cipro drops were amazing as i felt well enough to fly the very next day and finished out the rest of the week without further issues. Now if those ear drops ate a hole in my ear drum and caused permanent damage there would be nothing i could do as far as suing him or the drug manufacturer but if these cases kept coming up nobody would use them and they would go out of business so staying profitable is apparently motivation enough to ensure quality control and more sales. 

[EricJ]

44 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I’m not following the discussion on apprenticeship.  Does an A&P not have to do training (apprenticeship) time in a shop after graduation from A&P school?

Strictly speaking, no.    Once you've taken and passed all of your exams, you get the same A&P certificates and credentials that anybody else has, and are fully authorized to sign off anything an A&P can sign off.    There is no additional requirement or warming up period or anything like that.

That said, outside of GA a fresh, certificated A&P will still go through a ton of training and mentoring (akin to an apprenticeship, but formalized only to the extent required by the employer) within a given employer or industry.   The airlines have a ton of additional training.   A classmate of mine was a Southwest employee, running their parts department here, and on graduation, with his full A&P cert, he got sent off to another year or two of Southwest training in order to be a SWA A&P.   That seems to be typical, and even classmates who went to flight schools or 135 outfits wound up getting a lot of training within their new jobs, even with their A&P.   It works pretty much as it should and as you'd expect.

Within GA, since so much runs on reputation and word-of-mouth, a fresh A&P with no experience is not going to get their hands on a lot of business without doing a lot of work in the field, probably for somebody else, first.

Me, though, since I mostly work on my own airplane, I've been doing everything on my own since I got the certs.  So do most people in the same boat, BUT, I'll also say that I've not yet seen anybody in a similar situation, including myself, that doesn't research the hell out of something they're not sure about and engage other experienced people when needed.   So that seems to work reasonably well, too.   

In my experience when you find some kludged up horror that some A&P did to an airplane that needs to be undone and done properly, it wasn't done that way by some fresh new A&P, it was done by some grizzled experienced guy who thinks that's how it should be done, or just shoved it out the door hoping nobody would notice or something.    Inexperience doesn't seem to be the bigger issue in maintenance errors down here.

[OR75]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m not following the discussion on apprenticeship.  Does an A&P not have to do training (apprenticeship) time in a shop after graduation from A&P school?

In Canada there are a number of different routes to attain an AME licence, but all involve shop training as an apprentice.

Most do two years of community college, followed by 30 months of training (apprenticeship) under the supervision of a licensed AME for a total of 7200 hours before being eligible to write their final exam.  Some elect to do a third year of college covering avionic systems, this cuts their shop apprenticeship time down by another 9 months.

One can choose on line training, while doing their 7200 hours of shop training or apprenticeship time, followed by Transport Canada exams.

Others work 10 months in a shop training, followed by two months of Community College.  This is repeated for four years, then write the final Transport Canada exams.

In my shop I have had all of these variations over the years, but in all cases they work on your airplane while learning.

Once licensed they hold the equivalent of A&P with IA.

 

the A&P cannot be done online . A good chunk  of the classes is practical training equivalent to apprenticeship (using tool to rivet, make parts, service engines  , troubleshoot electrical systems , ....). 

In any case , any certificate or license (including pilot) is a base to learn from 

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Advising to sue does that somehow make the doctor somehow try better to try to keep from getting sued? If so it’s not working. 
 

i had an ear infection that i went into the dr’s office for. I waited over 2 hours just to see him. They prescribed an antibiotic shot and some oral cipro pills. The shot cost $300 the pills $100 and the office visit $150. I know because i turn in my receipts to my insurance company that paid for all of it minus $50 as an office copay. One could say well you didn’t pay the insurance paid it but that just means we all paid it through higher insurance premiums. One week later i felt well enough to fly and flew to Tokyo japan then the next day to Singapore. When i landed my ear infection came back and by the next morning i went down to the hotel lobby and asked where i could go to see a dr that would accept a foreigner. They pointed me to a clinic across the street. I walked in without an appointment and asked the lady behind the desk for a dr. She told me to go into the room to the right. I assumed it was the waiting room but when i opened the door there was a man behind the desk that asked what he could help with? I said i needed to see a dr about and ear infection. He pulled out an otoscope looked into my ear and said yes you have an ear infection. He wrote me a prescription and then said go pay the girl at the desk. I walked back out and handed her the prescription she read it opened up a refrigerator and gave me a bottle of liquid cipro ear drops and said that will be 47 sing! I said do you take US dollars? She said yes and said that would be $35! I said for the office visit or the ear drops? She said both. Unbelievable!  I said hold on i have to talk to the dr again and she said sure. I said doc i just had this same ear infected in the US and it cost $550 and i had to wait 2 hours before i even got to see anybody then i had to goto another store and wait 45 mins to get the prescription filled. I said how do you do this so much cheaper? He said we do not have lawsuits like you have in the states. And the cipro is a generic from Taiwan where if you have a side effect or die from it i doubt you could sue them for it. If you think that is cheap, if you were a citizen of Singapore you would be reimbursed 80% or 50% from our health care system depending on if you are rich or poor which is determined if you own house or rent. Those cipro drops were amazing as i felt well enough to fly the very next day and finished out the rest of the week without further issues. Now if those ear drops ate a hole in my ear drum and caused permanent damage there would be nothing i could do as far as suing him or the drug manufacturer but if these cases kept coming up nobody would use them and they would go out of business so staying profitable is apparently motivation enough to ensure quality control and more sales. 

I was looking at spending some early retirement time in Thailand to save some money.  I found a webpage by an American expat living in Chiang Mai.   He had some medical issue so went to the doctor.  All told, with tests and evaluation, he was there 3 hours, seeing the doctor several times along the time.  All done, including filling the prescription for the meds, it was $12.50.

He said the joke was, in the US you wait 3 hours to see the doctor for 15 minutes.  In Thailand, you wait 15 minutes to see the doctor for 3 hours. 

[N231BN]

Strictly speaking, no.    Once you've taken and passed all of your exams, you get the same A&P certificates and credentials that anybody else has, and are fully authorized to sign off anything an A&P can sign off.    There is no additional requirement or warming up period or anything like that.

§ 65.81 General privileges and limitations.

(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§ 65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

b. A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

[Sixstring2k]

On 5/26/2023 at 9:01 AM, JimB said:

Well...we can just agree to disagree. In the apprentice programs that I am involved in they get all the general topics, weight and balance, technical publications, inspection, mathematics, electrical, human factors, etc. 

As just a small side note to this, in an apprentice program we are able to weed out the people that you would wouldn't want working on your lawn mower let alone your single engine aircraft. If they don't perform, we let them go. At the A&P school, as long they can make a 70% and pay for their tuition they will get an their A&P no matter how terrible a mechanic they may be when done. 

I think you are underestimating the amount of learning it took to be a good A/P not just turning wrenches but good at troubleshooting because you have being thru the schooling and learned the basis. You can learned at lot on the field including the bad habits of others and take them as your own or just a narrow view or knowledge that you need to have. I mean For powerplant I had to study how pistons work, magnetos, pumps then a little of how those engines work in helicopter and finally throw all out the window and learn how jet engines work. For airframe I learned to bent and temper metal, weld, and rivet and then oh let’s learn and make wooden wings with glue and fabric. General the one that like was said before meds everything and took me the longest learning series circuit , parallel circuit ,induction, and then phases plus faa regulations. 
Not nocking on you but here in this sentiment is where GA is dying, getting that A/P license when I did it was everything to me and not easy, is not just turning wrenches if anyone thinks is just that then by all means go get it, become an apprentice or go to night school take the oral, written and practical and go take on a bunch of 20-50 year old planes some with just horrible maintenance I mean you wouldn’t believe the crap you find sometimes plus all the liability that comes with it (because now you touched it last so it must have being you fault) for little money and some owners that think you are always charging them too much. 
Sorry I don’t mean to come out rude but trying to have you and others understand. 

[Sixstring2k]

On 5/26/2023 at 8:42 PM, M20Doc said:

I’m not following the discussion on apprenticeship.  Does an A&P not have to do training (apprenticeship) time in a shop after graduation from A&P school?

In Canada there are a number of different routes to attain an AME licence, but all involve shop training as an apprentice.

Most do two years of community college, followed by 30 months of training (apprenticeship) under the supervision of a licensed AME for a total of 7200 hours before being eligible to write their final exam.  Some elect to do a third year of college covering avionic systems, this cuts their shop apprenticeship time down by another 9 months.

One can choose on line training, while doing their 7200 hours of shop training or apprenticeship time, followed by Transport Canada exams.

Others work 10 months in a shop training, followed by two months of Community College.  This is repeated for four years, then write the final Transport Canada exams.

In my shop I have had all of these variations over the years, but in all cases they work on your airplane while learning.

Once licensed they hold the equivalent of A&P with IA.

 

No apprenticeship, I came out of high school with my A/P then straight into the fire, I tell anyone who wants in to treat your A/P as a license to learn. Find a shop with a good reputation and stick around or go to a major and move around the different shops within the company and try them all. 

[Jsno]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:39 AM, Will.iam said:

And yet those AI’s and A&P now do not put their signatures on the line. Back then they did in the height of the litigation era as you so put it.  When i asked why they all said they do not want the liability of it now. So something has changed maybe they were just young and naïve back then or maybe they started seeing other a&p’s or even themselves get sued. . 

The liability has changed because now that there is insurance available for IAs , the lawyers have found out and automatically sue for the limits of his insurance if anything happens.  This insurance runs about 7K a year.  I am an IA and thought that I would do annuals as a part time retirement job.  I have now decided against this as I do not like the idea of performing multiple annuals each year just to turn around and hand the cash to the insurance company.  If I don't get the insurance, some pilot's wife could get my house, 401K and pension.  All it takes is one.

[Sixstring2k]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m intrigued, you were able to complete your A&P while in high school, walked out the door and could work on and sign out work on an airplane, but never stepped in a shop before that? Or am I misunderstanding it?

You are not misunderstanding, now they have an annex in jfk where they work on a 727 that was donated to gain more  “real world” experience. They used to have a apprenticeship with tower air when you had you A/P but the airline went out of business. 

https://www.aviationhs.net/ and https://www.aviationhs.net/aviation_high_schools_federal_aviation_administration_program_regulations_and_information

but I think Aviation high school is one of maybe 2 in the USA that still teach the A/P license curriculum at a high school level, they have to keep a certain level of total people passing the test per grade at a certain passing grade per student average if I remember to able to keep there certification. I can’t remember if the other high school is still around. 
 

The majors spend all the time in area schools just recruiting, AV is no exception. 
My first job right out of high school was working for an avionics company working of onboard entertainment system for Singapore airlines and American Airlines. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Sixstring2k
More detail

[1980Mooney]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:20 AM, Pinecone said:

I was looking at spending some early retirement time in Thailand to save some money.  I found a webpage by an American expat living in Chiang Mai.   He had some medical issue so went to the doctor.  All told, with tests and evaluation, he was there 3 hours, seeing the doctor several times along the time.  All done, including filling the prescription for the meds, it was $12.50.

He said the joke was, in the US you wait 3 hours to see the doctor for 15 minutes.  In Thailand, you wait 15 minutes to see the doctor for 3 hours. 

So if during the 3 hour visit, the expat spent an hour with the doctor and even if the entire $12.50 went to the doctor (forget about the cost of the meds and overhead), then the doctor at most could earn $12.50/hour.  That's $25k/year. He could make more flipping hamburgers at McD's nowadays in the US. 

Now maybe the cost of living is lower and the pace of life is slower there so perhaps that would be a decent income there.  However, if this was actually a doctor trained in modern medicine (maybe the expat was unwittingly just being treated by a tech in a white coat that got some info off of the internet) then the doctor could leave Thailand and come to the US making 10 times more money.  That is exactly why properly trained physicians are leaving every country and coming here.  The UK NHS reports that a third of jr. doctors plan to leave the UK as soon as they can find jobs in other countries.  Surgeries are having to be continually postponed because of a doctor shortage.  People die or those with money come to the US for treatment.

The Countries Experiencing Doctor Brain Drain (createandlearn.net)

Everyone thinks that they can get something for nothing. They want instant access to the best technology/skills/methods.  They want unlimited optionality provided by multiple providers that they can choose like going to a cafeteria. And they don't want to pay much for it.

And when they can't get ALL that then everyone wants a simple single explanation like blaming lawyers or politicians for all the problems/costs/shortcomings.

There seems to be a lot of frustration in posts above that A&P's/maintainers/mechanics/IA's are not satisfied with "a case of beer like in the old days" for their services.  Maybe the reality is that we, as pilot/owners, are not compensating our aircraft maintainers at a level commensurate with the value that they provide. That is the primary and real reason they are leaving GA or retiring.  As Mike Busch said, perhaps the solution is to start paying $200/hour shop rates.

Edited May 28, 2023 by 1980Mooney