More on circling approaches

[Mooneymite]

Sorry..  Mooneyspace would not allow me to directly upload this file

Maybe someone else can do so?

 

https://connect.ainonline.com/e3t/Ctc/LW+113/cx-zw04/VW4Mp84tGcYjVfct_d1C1XPmVNrtzX4ZZcnzN4zFKLQ3q3nJV1-WJV7CgJWxVg565d9hyPk6N9jCz1Hs__njW7lVy-M6CkbdQW16z-Lt1N8_5zVt0TRw63P-ctW2y6_C24qNtr1W5-cdN01tYgZXN1t9Yp8-jry1W67yl5Q6Dkxs_W1HQ4SX4LM74HW4XBMQX5cx897W9f8CZd1-2G9yVQkfJg5ZbfcSW7b4Pk11TpSTgW2Q6ljZ5CPMfNW6CP-2x4NNNdMW38GsRV6Smr7YW1xhnnB89zWQYW3ZBsPZ3Fqhw5W64Q2Rg8vV6VYW1Bm9xV3895ZvW8pz0l_4z7gQSW4mSRtf5Hg1PdW7htxhc5tJ_8p3gzF1

Edited April 29, 2023 by Mooneymite

[GeeBee]

Thank you for the review. Very timely. We are about to experience "Circulus Maximus" at KGVL as they will be shutting down runway 5-23, the two instrument runways for about a month starting May 30. That leaves rwy 11-29 (4000' unlighted) as our remaining pavement. I fear the worst. 

[N201MKTurbo]

SA-084.pdf

[Pinecone]

What's interesting is that with the 3 examples they list, the weather was above VFR minimums.  It was not circling at below VFR traffic pattern altitudes.

[GeeBee]

29 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

What's interesting is that with the 3 examples they list, the weather was above VFR minimums.  It was not circling at below VFR traffic pattern altitudes.

I notice that too. Lack of proficiency in flying tight patterns. Think about it. Most air carriers require at the lowest, a 3 mile minimum for CTL approaches. Thus you can find yourself turning a 3 mile final in a wide body jet while straining to find the runway. That gets pretty exciting if you're not proficient  at it. 

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, GeeBee said:

That gets pretty exciting if you're not proficient  at it. 

That word "exciting" covers a lot of territory. 

[Mooney in Oz]

Low level, close in overly tight turns can lead to stall spin. Add poor viz into the mix, you have a recipe for disaster.  A normal pattern turn onto final is very different to low level turns in weather.

Know the limits if having to conduct these approaches.

[kortopates]

The last one in particular is an example of how insidious a legal VFR METAR can be and fail so terribly to tell the whole story.

The Lear was coming back to its home base and although it came in on the RNAV 17 approach, RWY 17 being wet, made it too short for the Lear. But circling to 27 IFR is not permitted on 17 approach at night. So it cancelled IFR first. Despite the fact the METAR reported a ceiling at 2K, the Lear descended 400' below minimums in front of the MAWP and continued to descend as it approached the airport at less than 400' AGL over the runway. The pilot asked tower to turn up the lights which were already on high. The pilot flying, apparently right seat, while circling left, was unable to duplicate how they has practiced circling in the past before in Day VFR conditions. Surveillance video caught the lear going through some small clouds while circling which where probably a factor in the accident. Since this time they went too wide (for the altitude they were at) which put them behind a couple small hills just before the final turn onto final. Then the lear from getting too low found it boxed in a bit below the small hill with much higher terrain directly in front forcing the pilot to both pull up and over bank in order to turn onto final. Of course it stalled out instead. I'll spare you of the radio audio from the last couple seconds.

The accident highlights in my opinion how critical it is to have a plan for how you'll go missed any where along the circling maneuver; and especially for once you descend below minimums far way from the MAWP. In hindsight their only chance to survive was to go missed when they were directly over the airport. Trying to continue to get home while 600+' below circling minimums was a terrible lapse in judgement and good lesson for us all. 

 

 

[DCarlton]

18 minutes ago, kortopates said:

The last one in particular is an example of how insidious a legal VFR METAR can be and fail so terribly to tell the whole story.

The Lear was coming back to its home base and although it came in on the RNAV 17 approach, RWY 17 being wet, made it too short for the Lear. But circling to 27 IFR is not permitted on 17 approach at night. So it cancelled IFR first. Despite the fact the METAR reported a ceiling at 2K, the Lear descended 400' below minimums in front of the MAWP and continued to descend as it approached the airport at less than 400' AGL over the runway. The pilot asked tower to turn up the lights which were already on high. The pilot flying, apparently right seat, while circling left, was unable to duplicate how they has practiced circling in the past before in Day VFR conditions. Surveillance video caught the lear going through some small clouds while circling which where probably a factor in the accident. Since this time they went too wide (for the altitude they were at) which put them behind a couple small hills just before the final turn onto final. Then the lear from getting too low found it boxed in a bit below the small hill with much higher terrain directly in front forcing the pilot to both pull up and over bank in order to turn onto final. Of course it stalled out instead. I'll spare you of the radio audio from the last couple seconds.

The accident highlights in my opinion how critical it is to have a plan for how you'll go missed any where along the circling maneuver; and especially for once you descend below minimums far way from the MAWP. In hindsight their only chance to survive was to go missed when they were directly over the airport. Trying to continue to get home while 600+' below circling minimums was a terrible lapse in judgement and good lesson for us all. 

 

 

Do they ever use 27 left traffic at KSEE?  If so where do you turn base?  Behind or in front of the hills?  Every time I’ve flown there I’ve always been on a right base behind the hill.

[hais]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

The accident highlights in my opinion how critical it is to have a plan for how you'll go missed any where along the circling maneuver;

This is something I recommend you practice. A humbling experience. I did that a month ago in a simulator.

Weather was right at minimums. I briefed how I'd go missed in the turn - the plan was to turn left direct to the hold. As I was turning right base I went IMC (not anticipated). I decided a quick change of plans was in order since I was already in the turn. I continued the right turn, initiated the climb, and engaged the auto pilot. I cleaned up, then looked at PFD and discovered I was climbing wings level to I don't know where. I engaged the correct auto pilot mode and was back on course. 

If there were obstacles where I was flying towards.... 

Lesson: stick to the plan.

Making up a new plan while going around in IMC is dangerous. No room for mistakes. In this case I was in a simulator at an airport with no obstacles in all quadrants. Another field in a real airplane.... 

[kortopates]

Do they ever use 27 left traffic at KSEE?  If so where do you turn base?  Behind or in front of the hills?  Every time I’ve flown there I’ve always been on a right base behind the hill.

Yes, the 27 Right VFR pattern is Left traffic SS to SR (27L is closed) and Right Traffic SR to SS.

Unless forced to extend for traffic, left traffic always turns base in front of the two little hills.

Right traffic must go around the big mountain without prior permission to do a short approach.

But circling to 27 L/R on the 17 approach is always done to the south (left traffic) due to circling restrictions which is NA at night.

[DCarlton]

45 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Yes, the 27 Right VFR pattern is Left traffic SS to SR (27L is closed) and Right Traffic SR to SS.

Unless forced to extend for traffic, left traffic always turns base in front of the two little hills.

Right traffic must go around the big mountain without prior permission to do a short approach.

But circling to 27 L/R on the 17 approach is always done to the south (left traffic) due to circling restrictions which is NA at night.

Is it reasonable to expect something like a Lear to fly 27 left traffic and turn base in front of the hills?  I’ve never flown a downwind leg at KSEE to get a good view but base to final seems like a tight turn for a jet inside the hills.  That accident was certainly tragic and sickening.  

[kortopates]

Is it reasonable to expect something like a Lear to fly 27 left traffic and turn base in front of the hills?  I’ve never flown a downwind leg at KSEE but base to final seems like a tight turn for a jet inside the hills.  That accident was certainly tragic and sickening.  

I don’t really know how reasonable it is, only that the crew did it twice before the accident successfully during Day VFR and both times in front of the hills. The FAA doesn’t have an issue with it though since they provide for both category C and D minimums with 3 mi visibility on the approach. Circling wider a bit behind the hills is fine too as long as they don’t get too low and stay above the hills. Category C/D minimums are 500’ higher to reflect this as well.


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[rbp]

18 hours ago, hais said:

nitiated the climb, and engaged the auto pilot. I cleaned up, then looked at PFD and discovered I was climbing wings level to I don't know where. I engaged the correct auto pilot mode and was back on course. 

I did this on a practice RNAV approach two weeks ago. I hit the TOGA button, and after I had cleaned up I pressed ALT and HDG, but I had forgotten to set the ALT and HDG bugs to the missed approach instructions that had been read to me. Luckily it was a practice approach with a safety pilot, because it didn't turn out well.