Frequent observation about landing and idle RPM (CFI perspective)

[N201MKTurbo]

40 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Not exactly, as if you read the info, the cylinders were in line and water cooled.  So like a 4 cyl in line engine.  But 9 of them around a common crankcase.

Not exactly, all radial engines have a master rod and in this case 8 slave rods on a common crank. there were four of these stacked endwise. The fact that the cylinders were not staggered has little to do with it. The water cooling allow the straight cylinder arrangement.

[Pinecone]

"the R-7755 was water-cooled, and so each of the cylinder heads in a cylinder bank were in-line within a cooling jacket."

Like I said, like a 4 cylinder in line but with a common crankshaft and crankcase for all of them.  There was 4 cylinders in a single cooling jacket.

[A64Pilot]

I’m going to throw this out there, but if you get used to it, you actually can land slightly shorter carrying just a little power, the trick of course it to get the airplane behind the power curve and it will land quite quickly, no float.

The reason people have so much trouble with a Mooney is because they carry too much speed over the numbers and wait for drag to slow the airplane to land, because that was how they were taught to land, a Mooney of course has less drag so it slows much less than other aircraft we are used to, so it’s thought that a Mooney “floats”.

If you get the airspeed right then you cross the numbers and flare and she lands right away, even with a high idle, but that airspeed is lower than many think. Best way in my opinion to master a Mooney landing is always try for a “spot” landing, that is to always touch down at a planned spot as opposed to just waiting for it to settle because you have a mile of runway and can.

Just don’t get obsessed with hitting the spot, if today it’s going to be long, fine keep the nose up, she will land, never drop the nose to hit the spot, go around if you have to. Eventually it will just become the way you land.

Oh, my idle is whatever the manual calls for and I regularly land in well less than 2,000 ft grass strips all the time, you just get used to it after awhile, it’s not hard, like riding a bicycle was tough at first, now second nature. I’m not saying to immediately got out and try short fields, work up to it slowly and don’t cheat and use brakes, you’ll end up with flat spotted tires if you do.

[Shadrach]

On 4/24/2023 at 7:35 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Ouch, were they part of the Tempest 2018 bad batch or Champion?

I’ve heard that they’ll cure your asthma too.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve heard that they’ll cure your asthma too.

There is no pilot that has ever admitted to having asthma to his flight surgeon 

[Shadrach]

7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

There is no pilot that has ever admitted to having asthma to his flight surgeon 

Obscure song lyric reference...sorry

[Frank]

On 5/1/2023 at 8:58 AM, A64Pilot said:

The reason people have so much trouble with a Mooney is because they carry too much speed over the numbers and wait for drag to slow the airplane to land, because that was how they were taught to land, a Mooney of course has less drag so it slows much less than other aircraft we are used to, so it’s thought that a Mooney “floats”.

It's not just the low profile drag, but the short landing gear means the Mooney wing is much closer to the ground than most other airplanes and ground effect is more pronounced, greatly reducing induced drag during landing.

[cliffy]

By the end of WWII they were getting 4,000 HP out of the R-2800 reliably.

IMO we see more flying technique issues on landing in a Mooney than we see engine issues causing the problem.

My hangar faces the runway and any weekend I can sit out there and watch as Mooneys float for 2,000 feet before they land 

by dropping on all 3 wheels at the same time.  NO flare at all.

Its the same with Cirrus airplanes. Just watched a Cirrus try a short landing by dragging the wheels with locked brakes as the

smoke billowed up from under the airplane. 

AND I talked with a Check Airman from an airline yesterday and he's worried about the future with what he sees coming up in his airline

We are now seeing jet Capts being made while on 1st year probation and forced Capt upgrades due to pilot shortages. 

Its gonna happen sooner or later folks. 

[N201MKTurbo]

36 minutes ago, cliffy said:

By the end of WWII they were getting 4,000 HP out of the R-2800 reliably.

IMO we see more flying technique issues on landing in a Mooney than we see engine issues causing the problem.

My hangar faces the runway and any weekend I can sit out there and watch as Mooneys float for 2,000 feet before they land 

by dropping on all 3 wheels at the same time.  NO flare at all.

Its the same with Cirrus airplanes. Just watched a Cirrus try a short landing by dragging the wheels with locked brakes as the

smoke billowed up from under the airplane. 

AND I talked with a Check Airman from an airline yesterday and he's worried about the future with what he sees coming up in his airline

We are now seeing jet Capts being made while on 1st year probation and forced Capt upgrades due to pilot shortages. 

Its gonna happen sooner or later folks. 

R-2800 started out at 2000 HP the most they made 2800 HP

[cliffy]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

R-2800 started out at 2000 HP the most they made 2800 HP

Well no not quite

I have a very large extensive book on the development of the R-2800 and in it it shows that the final version

that never made it into combat was producing a reliable 4,000 HP at the end of the war. 

I also have another very large book on the R-4360  Both show the engines from inception to final design 

I'll get the titles and authors tomorrow when I go dig into my library. 

BTW Mooneys don't float if you are on speed in the flare

[Pinecone]

R-3350 only made it to 2600 HP.  R-4360 got to 3500 HP

[Will.iam]

Gotta love thread drift i went into this thread to see if i could gleam some new or better landing techniques and instead got an education on radial engines and the amount of power and fuel they consume to get there. 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Will.iam said:

Gotta love thread drift i went into this thread to see if i could gleam some new or better landing techniques and instead got an education on radial engines and the amount of power and fuel they consume to get there. 

The hardest part of landing a Mooney with an R-2800 is keeping the cylinders from hitting the ground.

[PT20J]

22 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The hardest part of landing a Mooney with an R-2800 is keeping the cylinders from hitting the ground.

Naw, the prop will hit first!

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, PT20J said:

Naw, the prop will hit first!

Yea, thet 16 foot Ham Standard needs a bigger nose wheel...

[PT20J]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Yea, thet 16 foot Ham Standard needs a bigger nose wheel...

Or a tail wheel conversion

[N201MKTurbo]

Is this the Mooney you are talking about? The prop is actually 13' 4".

 

 

 

[Fly Boomer]

On 5/16/2023 at 11:27 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

Is this the Mooney you are talking about? The prop is actually 13' 4".

That's a beauty!  Check the date -- 1941.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

That's a beauty!  Check the date -- 1941.

It’s the first one.

I was surprised to learn that the test pilot who first flew the Corsair was Greg Boynton. After all those years watching Black Sheep Squadron, they never mentioned that.  

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It’s the first one.

I was surprised to learn that the test pilot who first flew the Corsair was Greg Boynton. After all those years watching Black Sheep Squadron, they never mentioned that.  

Probably not the same guy.   Black Sheep squadron was led by Greg Boyington, but I do see it conflated with Greg Boynton in a number of places.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Probably not the same guy.   Black Sheep squadron was led by Greg Boyington, but I do see it conflated with Greg Boynton in a number of places.

Now your going to make me find the article again and find the truth. See how you are!

[N201MKTurbo]

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/bu-no-1443/
 

that’s the article that the picture came from. The picture of Boyington with the designer threw me off.