Purchased M20J should I finish ppl in warrior or my plane

[Nebraskamooneymatt]

I took lessons 20 years ago and had 35 hours in a Piper Warrior and had completed all cross countries, night flight, hood time….etc.  instructor told me I was ready for checkride…but then had a couple kids and life happened and never finished it.  Had a great opportunity to buy a really nice M20J from some friends so I did it….now trying to decide if I should just jump into new plane or go back and to the warrior that the FBO still has for rental.  I honestly don’t mind if it takes some extra hours to learn in the Mooney and my instructor says he would finish in the warrior because it would be easier/faster to get PPL wrapped up in that, but thinks we could go the new plane route if I wanted to….Just curious of this groups thoughts.

[donkaye]

18 minutes ago, Nebraskamooneymatt said:

I took lessons 20 years ago and had 35 hours in a Piper Warrior and had completed all cross countries, night flight, hood time….etc.  instructor told me I was ready for checkride…but then had a couple kids and life happened and never finished it.  Had a great opportunity to buy a really nice M20J from some friends so I did it….now trying to decide if I should just jump into new plane or go back and to the warrior that the FBO still has for rental.  I honestly don’t mind if it takes some extra hours to learn in the Mooney and my instructor says he would finish in the warrior because it would be easier/faster to get PPL wrapped up in that, but thinks we could go the new plane route if I wanted to….Just curious of this groups thoughts.

As an experienced Mooney Specific Instructor (nearly 6,700 hours teaching), I would skip the Warrior and go directly to the Mooney.  The landing characteristics are so much different with the oleo struts of the Warrior that becoming proficient in the Warrior would give you a false sense of security as compared to the Mooney.  With the Warrior you can get away with "plopping" it on the runway--not so with the Mooney with its rubber donut shock absorbers.  When taught properly, the Mooney is easy to land, but rate of descent to touchdown (meaning slope control) is critical along with airspeed control.  Get back into flying with the J and a good Mooney Specific Instructor.

[ArtVandelay]

I would use whatever the CFI is familiar with, and that’s probably not a Mooney.

[hubcap]

Have you discussed this with your insurance agent?

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Nebraskamooneymatt said:

Had a great opportunity to buy a really nice M20J from some friends so I did it….now trying to decide if I should just jump into new plane or go back and to the warrior that the FBO still has for rental.

At this point, you don't have a lot of familiarity with either airplane, so I would just do it in the Mooney.  Essentially, you will be doing your transition training and finishing your primary training at the same time.  It might take slightly longer, but when you get your license, you won't need the transition training.  That said, follow the advice from @hubcap and see if your insurance company wants to influence your decision.

[Nebraskamooneymatt]

8 hours ago, hubcap said:

Have you discussed this with your insurance agent?

Yes…I have insurance set up…only restriction is I can’t solo until I get 15 hours in Mooney.

[AIREMATT]

Getting the experience in the Mooney during your training will put you well ahead of the game after you get your ppl.

Just be sure you have a good CFI with experience in the Mooney or you will both be learning at the same time and you won’t get much help from the CFI if he is learning the airplane at the same time you are. That’s a bad combo.

The M20 isn’t as docile as the PA28. Learning the PA28 will get you a ppl, but no experience in your Mooney. It will be a big change as a low time ppl and you may want more time than insurance requires to get yourself up to speed in the Mooney. 
Either way you do it,  be sure you get your plan figured out before you hit it hard. You don’t want to be trying to do both at the same time.

If I were to use the PA28, I would find one of those stick on landing gear selectors with 3 green lights, and use it every lesson so you get used to retractable airplane operations. You will help yourself out by learning retractable gear procedures in the PA28 that will immediately transfer to the Mooney.

 

[Rwsavory]

Follow your instructor’s advice. He knows your situation better than a random Mooney owner on the internet. 

[Guest]

I’m confused,  I so often read hear how difficult Mooney’s are to fly, to land etc, yet here we are telling a newbie to do his PPL in one.  Now we just need to here from the “another Mooney wreck drove up my insurance rates” group.

My opinion, do your PPL in a trainer, do your type conversion and advanced ratings in your Mooney.  
 

 

[skykrawler]

One thing for sure,  the Warrior will train you for flying an aircraft with low climb performance and its easier to stay ahead of it.

[cbarry]

A theory is:  If a person has to ask what others would do, that person is asking for permission to do something they probably are not fully comfortable doing on their own.  Use the trainer/rental to knock out the basics and transition to your traveling machine as you advance.    Part of the fun in becoming a pilot is learning the characteristics of various aircraft.  By the way, flying the Warrior will really help you appreciate your Mooney purchase.  Congratulations on becoming a Mooniac!

[Fly Boomer]

21 hours ago, Nebraskamooneymatt said:

I took lessons 20 years ago and had 35 hours in a Piper Warrior and had completed all cross countries, night flight, hood time….etc.  instructor told me I was ready for checkride…but then had a couple kids and life happened and never finished it.  Had a great opportunity to buy a really nice M20J from some friends so I did it….now trying to decide if I should just jump into new plane or go back and to the warrior that the FBO still has for rental.  I honestly don’t mind if it takes some extra hours to learn in the Mooney and my instructor says he would finish in the warrior because it would be easier/faster to get PPL wrapped up in that, but thinks we could go the new plane route if I wanted to….Just curious of this groups thoughts.

Bad idea to let the Mooney sit idle while you finish up your ticket in a rental -- could be an expensive mistake.

[ArtVandelay]

Follow your instructor’s advice. He knows your situation better than a random Mooney owner on the internet. 

Probably true, but if he is willing use your Mooney, your 1st question is how many hours do you have in a Mooney….if that number isn’t above 25 hours, your insurance or/and his will not cover you.
Landing a Mooney is not like landing a trainer, it’s best to get someone else to do the transition training.

[Nebraskamooneymatt]

1 hour ago, cbarry said:

A theory is:  If a person has to ask what others would do, that person is asking for permission to do something they probably are not fully comfortable doing on their own.  Use the trainer/rental to knock out the basics and transition to your traveling machine as you advance.    Part of the fun in becoming a pilot is learning the characteristics of various aircraft.  By the way, flying the Warrior will really help you appreciate your Mooney purchase.  Congratulations on becoming a Mooniac!

I thought the same thing at first…but the reality is that I am asking not because I am not comfortable, it’s that my cfi was very “either way is fine, warrior would be faster and easier so why not get the certificate by doing a check ride in the easier plane?”  I really am not in a “hurry” to get PPL so part of me would be fine flying another 40-50 hours getting instruction in the plane I plan on flying for a long time.  I really didn’t have any struggles in the warrior because we live in a very remote area and have a runway long and wide enough to cover up a wide range of landing errors…truth is I am probably going to finish up the private in the warrior…just feel silly renting a plane that’s sitting in a hangar.  Just not sure what people mean that the Mooney is “hard to fly”  other than being a complex airplane and a litttle floaty on landings…wasn’t sure what else concerns pilots about it.

 

thanks for the feedback….really appreciate it.

[donkaye]

9 hours ago, Nebraskamooneymatt said:

I thought the same thing at first…but the reality is that I am asking not because I am not comfortable, it’s that my cfi was very “either way is fine, warrior would be faster and easier so why not get the certificate by doing a check ride in the easier plane?”  I really am not in a “hurry” to get PPL so part of me would be fine flying another 40-50 hours getting instruction in the plane I plan on flying for a long time.  I really didn’t have any struggles in the warrior because we live in a very remote area and have a runway long and wide enough to cover up a wide range of landing errors…truth is I am probably going to finish up the private in the warrior…just feel silly renting a plane that’s sitting in a hangar.  Just not sure what people mean that the Mooney is “hard to fly”  other than being a complex airplane and a litttle floaty on landings…wasn’t sure what else concerns pilots about it.

 

thanks for the feedback….really appreciate it.

While I don't know what is in other people's minds above who recommend against using your own airplane, you said you were ready to take your check ride at the time other things interfered with our completion of the PPL.  In a few of hours of good training you could be back to that proficiency.  It's easy to be sloppy landing airplanes with oleo struts.  Learning good technique (constant airspeed, constant 3° slope) will make you a better pilot quicker.  If you don't have an instructor who understands this and will let you get away with the sloppiness of various airspeeds and slopes, then your road to becoming a proficient pilot will be delayed no matter the plane you finish your training in.  The Mooney flys like any other single (only better) but does require the proficiency of understanding and applying the relationship of pitch/power/configuration.  Once you truly "get that", it doesn't make a difference what airplane you fly.  You can make it do what you want it to do.  I made a short landing video a number of years ago that demonstrate the proper approach technique along with other important items.  (Bounced land recovery, soft field landing technique)  It's inexpensive ($25) and how to get it can be found on my website along with other articles I've written over time and links to other articles I think are important from other authors.  https://donkaye.com/flight-instruction.

Good luck with your training no matter what airplane you use.

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Probably true, but if he is willing use your Mooney, your 1st question is how many hours do you have in a Mooney….if that number isn’t above 25 hours, your insurance or/and his will not cover you.

I have CFI insurance and the policy does not set minimum hours in make or model, just requires I be current in category and class.   That doesn’t mean I am ready to teach in, say, a Meyers 200D, as I’ve never been in one.  But I’d be covered….

Typically a new Mooney owner’s policy will place restrictions on the CFI chosen for initial training and of late that’s been 25 hours make and model & 250 retract. 

Agree with others, and admittedly it is self-serving, that transition training is better with an instructor who has extensive experience in the same make and model.  

If you want to learn to fly your Mooney, I advise you train in the Mooney.  As the kinesiology professors say, “if you want to learn to play the flute, don’t go shoot baskets”

[ArtVandelay]

If you want to learn to fly your Mooney, I advise you train in the Mooney.  As the kinesiology professors say, “if you want to learn to play the flute, don’t go shoot baskets”

I agree if this was IFR training.

Not for PP, I’ve had a CFI become extremely unhappy with my landing technique, didn’t like the 70 knots on short final, he wanted 80. I told him if I did 80 we’d needed a longer runway.

[jlunseth]

I have a little different take. I tried something like what the OP is anticipating for my instrument checkride. It was sort of forced on me. I took my early lessons in an Archer and then got the Mooney. I took some lessons in the Mooney and then it turned out the Mooney needed some work so we moved to a Skyhawk. The school had several different Skyhawks and they all had different instrumentation. With all the changes going on, learning to land and maneuver different planes with different speeds and then instruments with different buttonology it just did not go very well.

Why not just finish your lessons in the Warrior. It is an easier plane to land. It is also considerably slower so you have more time to consider what you need to do. It’s not that the Mooney can’t fly slower, but most people don’t figure that out, and even then the Mooney’s “slow” speeds are faster than the Warrior’s. Think about it. You are going to have to learn to fly steep turns at a different, faster speed. Same with all the maneuvers.

I don’t for a minute think you can’t get it done in a Mooney. It is not that hard. But why not just finish your PPL up in the Warrior you are familiar with. Then get your transition training and challenge yourself getting an Instrument Rating in the Mooney, and if you want to be a really good, safe pilot, do a Commercial in it also. The Commercial maneuvers are almost never used in real life, but you learn a ton about how to fly and control your plane, it is worth doing.

Nerves are part of every checkride. Just go with the familiar, get it over with, become a certificated pilot, and then learn your Mooney.

[201er]

This dilemma comes from putting the cart before the horse. In most cases it’s better to finish the training before buying a plane. But by having the plane first it puts a strong bias toward using what you already paid for. It is hard to choose to not use it and fly the trainer instead.

[skykrawler]

After thinking about it, I would recommend going with the Warrior.   Unless the DPE you are using for the check ride is familiar with the Mooney and has done examinations in a Mooney then he might not be in 'sync' with how you are trained for the departure and approach stalls.  Also its easier to configure the airplane incorrectly for these maneuvers in a complex airplane as well as when performing the recovery.   Avoiding a second check ride is important.

My hangar bud has a  nicely equippedTurbo-Archer and he's been IFR training in a C172 for pretty much the same reason. Simplicity.

[jlunseth]

PS if you do go with the Mooney you are going to have to ask the DPE if it is ok,  because it does not have co-pilot side brakes, I.e. not full controls on that side.

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

Getting the experience in the Mooney during your training will put you well ahead of the game after you get your ppl.

Just be sure you have a good CFI with experience in the Mooney or you will both be learning at the same time and you won’t get much help from the CFI if he is learning the airplane at the same time you are. That’s a bad combo.

 

IMO, that is the BIG thing.  Unless your instructor has time INSTRUCTING in a Mooney, they would not be the best choice.

If here is not a well qualified MOONEY experienced instructor available, finish your training in the Warrior and then spend time with a Mooney instructor.

Otherwise, I would do it in the Mooney.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I agree if this was IFR training.

Not for PP, I’ve had a CFI become extremely unhappy with my landing technique, didn’t like the 70 knots on short final, he wanted 80. I told him if I did 80 we’d needed a longer runway.

Absolutely time for a new instructor.  This instructor doesn't know Mooneys.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I agree if this was IFR training.

Not for PP, I’ve had a CFI become extremely unhappy with my landing technique, didn’t like the 70 knots on short final, he wanted 80. I told him if I did 80 we’d needed a longer runway.

Obviously that instructor spent too much time here reading about how difficult Mooney’s are to fly and land.

[Red Leader]

To answer your original question, it is more likely up to the individual and how comfortable they are in both the training aircraft and their new (to them) Mooney. In my case, I purchased my flights school's aircraft to complete my PPL when I had my Grumman AA5. I knew I could not fly the Grumman with the same level of perfection (it was very sensitive) as I could the Cessna and thusly took my checkride in the 152 - I sold that plane immediately thereafter. If I had to do it again with the 152 and my 231, I would still choose the Cessna as it was slower and thus easier to keep from making noticable mistakes that might otherwise bust my test.