Close Call At JFK

[GeeBee]

8 minutes ago, 201er said:

They'll let them land but not taxi?

That is correct. Taxi, in particular a wide body is not as simple as follow the line. There is "judgmental over steer", "main gear positioning", "nose overhang" and "growing wing tip" all of which require training and observation by an LCA before sign off. The airlines don't want to spend the money.

At LGA for instance, in a wide body you are often have the cockpit visually overhanging the dirt or water and you better know what you are doing.

Or trying doing a 180 on a 150' wide runway with a 148' tire to tire radius.

 

[aviatoreb]

I do f know what airline procedures are and I don’t know if it helps but it can’t hurt.  Whenever crossing a runway despite instructions to do so I always look left and right just like at a stop sign in a car - just in case.  I’m not sure if it helps if I would see an airplane a mile or two away on a long runway - but it can’t hurt.  But minimal effort.

e

[GeeBee]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I do f know what airline procedures are and I don’t know if it helps but it can’t hurt.  Whenever crossing a runway despite instructions to do so I always look left and right just like at a stop sign in a car - just in case.  I’m not sure if it helps if I would see an airplane a mile or two away on a long runway - but it can’t hurt.  But minimal effort.

e

Well actually our procedure was, "clear left, clear right" but I don't know about AA.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Well actually our procedure was, "clear left, clear right" but I don't know about AA.

Perfect!   I bet it helps more when up high in a 737 too more than a Mooney.  Nonetheless… I’m going to keep doing it.

I also do it as I’m passing through a green light…. Just in case the other guy is screwing up.  My grandfather used to say / don’t be right and dead.

[Will.iam]

AA is clear left right but you are routinely given taxi across runways with airplanes on that runway holding for takeoff while you cross further down so not uncommon to see one there while you cross. Most will have their main wing lights on but nose light off but that is not a requirement nor do some captains do that. It would be hard to discern whether the other plane was moving or not with it just starting to roll. Besides if they were so task saturated to see they were not on K nor crossing 31 instead of 4L i doubt they would see a moving aircraft coming at them. To flip it the other way the delta pilots that are taking off didn’t see a jet starting to cross their takeoff runway and abort the takeoff sooner? Like it should have been delta telling tower they were stopping not the other way around. 

[Will.iam]

Also airports like DFW have red lights at every taxiway intersection to the runway that turn on automatically when an airplane begins its takeoff roll down the runway. Also the airplane sitting at the end of the runway waiting to take off will also have a double row of red lights light up in your face when an aircraft (or vehicle) anywhere down  the runway taxi points enters your runway. Now delta was probably already passed those lights because they are usually at the first 1500ft but if i read JFK diagram correctly they are at the intersection of 31L and 4L but do they only work for those on the runway or do they also work for the taxiways down the runway?  but AA would have had them in their taxi lane and they would have been on. You are trained to never taxi over or takeoff over red lights. You must call tower and explain you can’t takeoff because the red lights are on. It was a safety feature put in at dfw and jfk just to stop this very thing from happening. 
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/

 

[Will.iam]

Of course if you didn’t catch the wrong taxiway letter or didn’t notice the red 4L-22R sign you just went by the red lights in front of you should have been the the last barrier to this incident. Had it been night or low vis taxi operations i think they would have paid more attention and would have seen the red lights and stopped but in this incident apparently not. Will be interesting what facts come out of this investigation. 

[201er]

6 hours ago, Will.iam said:

AA is clear left right but you are routinely given taxi across runways with airplanes on that runway holding for takeoff while you cross further down so not uncommon to see one there while you cross. 

Unless I explicitly heard tower tell that airplane to line up and wait or tower tells me to cross reiterating the airplane on the runway is holding, I wouldn’t cross.

[GeeBee]

DL1943 received his TO clearance 21 seconds before AA106 "broke the barrier" so DL's red lights would have been out. Indeed as DL rolled AA was not even close to the bars. While we have the tape we do not know if DL started the abort before or after the tower called it. What we do know is AA was at the wrong place. We do know that from the FAA statement that the controller did not notice AA was at the wrong place until incursion software alarmed the incursion. That statement is logical as the GC would have noticed AA failed the right turn to go to 4L if he had eyes on him. We do not know if the barrier lights at AA's position worked and he missed them or they failed.

Another question I have is did all cockpit routine cease. At places like JFK it was my operational norm to stop all checklists and routines and have everybody eyes out, until we were across all runways on the "dead end" to the runway. Then do your taxi and before take off checks.  That can cause you to "slow roll" to the TO but it is important to have all eyes out. You can pre-brief the FAs to have the cabin ready early. 

[DXB]

As a rank amateur, this incident reminds me that I've managed to botch the ground communication and/or taxi instructions in one way or other when departing every single large busy airport where I've been. That goes for KMDW, KFLL, KTEB, and KOPF.  Once cleared for takeoff, the challenge at these places rapidly abates, and I no longer feel in over my head.  Thankfully I've had no runway incursions to date, but this thread is a great reminder to respect that red sign with runway numbers on it, think carefully if I'm cleared across that exact runway at that intersection, ask if I'm not sure, and verbalize looking both ways when crossing.

[Cruiser]

early in my flying years departing a controlled field, I could not read back the taxi instructions correctly. This cycle continued several times until the controller, totally frustrated with me,  issued progressive taxi instructions. 
His next clearance was to a corporate pilot that signed on with a snide remark about amateur pilots, who immediately failed to readback the correct clearance. Image my delight in keying the mic and saying "not so easy is it"

[flyboy0681]

The cockpit conversation on the way to LHR must have been very interesting - or extremely quiet.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

The cockpit conversation on the way to LHR must have been very interesting - or extremely quiet.

I am actually amazed AA flt ops allowed them to continue. DL went back to the gate for a/c inspection and crew change. If I was the manager I would have told them to return to the gate for several reasons. First is preservation of the CVR, second is the psychological effect of a Brasher warning and the continuous distraction that creates finally the PTS of a near accident.

[jlunseth]

22 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Perfect!   I bet it helps more when up high in a 737 too more than a Mooney.  Nonetheless… I’m going to keep doing it.

I also do it as I’m passing through a green light…. Just in case the other guy is screwing up.  My grandfather used to say / don’t be right and dead.

I haven’t been in C’s very often and never a B, but when I have been there the lack of an overview from on high like a 737 is a problem. Sometimes there will be four or five ways to turn not including the inbound leg that you are on. There are plenty of signs, but which one is which? Was in MKE last summer, what a mess to taxi on and no pressure of course.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I am actually amazed AA flt ops allowed them to continue. DL went back to the gate for a/c inspection and crew change. If I was the manager I would have told them to return to the gate for several reasons. First is preservation of the CVR, second is the psychological effect of a Brasher warning and the continuous distraction that creates finally the PTS of a near accident.

I was just thinking that about the tower and the other aircraft too.  They were all rattled whether it was their fault or not.  I would think they were done for the day.

[201er]

5 hours ago, DXB said:

Once cleared for takeoff, the challenge at these places rapidly abates, and I no longer feel in over my head. 

By the way, this especially true for international flying! Things are quite different on the ground but in the air it’s all familiar.

[Culver LFA]

I think that they really believed that they were doing the right thing, and by their response, the ground controller must be wrong! But their situational awareness was off and they were not going where they thought that they were. Probably 90 degrees off like was mentioned before. How’d it happen? I don’t know but this confusion can happen so easily and that’s exactly why there are two pilots, there’s no shame in saying “Stop! I think we’re going the wrong way” or whatever the problem is even if you’re incorrect in the end.
As a recent example (I’m with a Part 91/135), on an arrival we briefed the approach that we were expecting from ATIS and then reviewed our expected taxi route as we always do.  Then, while busy on the arrival, Approach changes the runway direction and switches everybody. So no big deal, you’re landing from the other side from what you previously briefed. But you are busy, recalculating landing numbers, briefing the new approach, loading it, etc, then get vectors, intercept and land, but you never briefed the new taxi route and now you’re on the ground.  Everything still seems ok but when you turn off the runway something starts to seem off, you hesitate for a second as your brain says, “Wait a minute, I’m going the wrong way…” because you (from the prior briefing in the air) expected to turn the other direction.  So you clear the runway, get confusing taxi instructions and have to stop to look at your taxi diagram to see what’s up before proceeding.

I don’t know what happened in their heads but the human brain just seems to have a hard time letting go of bad information.  All it takes is a long day, weather challenges, an unexpected change or a little distraction and you are on your way to a mistake, hopefully not a dangerous/life threatening/career ending one.  They approached the crossing runway, looked out the window (and maybe even saw the other airplanes lights!) but whatever, it’s not all processing yet, we are where we are supposed to be, clear left/clear right, cleared to cross…
This flying thing is really easy and fun until something goes wrong and you get on the wrong side of being ahead of the game. I’m so glad this wasn’t a huge disaster and everyone was able to go home. I bet the crew is just beating themselves up for crossing that runway. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Culver LFA
Trying to type on a phone

[AIREMATT]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

By the way, this especially true for international flying! Things are quite different on the ground but in the air it’s all familiar.

Not all familiar in the air either sometimes in some foreign airspace. Plenty of distractions with language barriers, lack of technology, different ICAO terminologies and foreign boundaries requiring pre-arranged permissions that lead to distractions and preconceived bias that are hard to get your head to see through sometimes, especially when on the back side of the body clock…

[carusoam]

Gents,

Thank you very much for sharing all of your combined experiences…

it’s challenging enough to follow the taxi route from the back of the commercial plane… without a GPS running… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Will.iam]

Brasher warnings and call this number is not an immediate requirement. In fact you have 24 hrs to do so. This allows you to get union representation if you have that or a lawyer if you don’t. I found this out one night flying a red-eye we took a restroom break and between the two of us missed center’s calls a total of 14 mins elapsed before communication was reestablished to which we were told to contact center with a phone number. This was an out and back so when we landed i called my 24hr hotline alpa rep which went straight to voice mail at 2am so much for 24 hr service. So now I wasn’t sure if i could fly the return leg home or not. After 45 mins we were 20 mins away from scheduled push back and still no response from the union. So i called the number and they asked for my ATP# and home address. And that was it from the phone call. So we flew back home. Next morning i get a call from the alpa rep apologizing for not answering the phone. He asked you didn’t call them did you? I said well since I didn’t get ahold of you and didn’t have guidance nor was i sure i was legal to fly again since they said call once you are on the ground, yes i called them. He said you have 24hrs to respond and that gives you time to get legal counsel. I was like that would have been nice to know when i called the 24hr hotline, you could like leave that info on the recording instead of leave your name and number after the beep!!!

i filled out an asap report which the company accepted and that was the end of that. 
maybe the crew didn’t realize at the time how close a call this really was or they knew of the 24hr allowance and didn’t call but sources said they took off 30 mins late so maybe they talked to someone? From what i hear they did not operate the plane back and were deadheaded back to the states. But that could just be rumor. 

[GeeBee]

If I had a near ground collision through my error, I would be on the phone to the Fight Ops Duty Pilot so the company is in the loop before I took off and let them make the decision. Worst thing you can do is let your Chief Pilot get blind sided.

 

[StevenL757]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:21 AM, GeeBee said:

Another question I have is did all cockpit routine cease.

Considering the way neither pilot caught the incorrect turn despite a correct readback, I'd have to answer "most-likely yes".

On 1/17/2023 at 8:21 AM, GeeBee said:

At places like JFK it was my operational norm to stop all checklists and routines and have everybody eyes out, until we were across all runways on the "dead end" to the runway. Then do your taxi and before take off checks.  That can cause you to "slow roll" to the TO but it is important to have all eyes out. You can pre-brief the FAs to have the cabin ready early. 

This is SOP for us, actually.  When I was going through indoc, one instructor described the act of taxiing the aircraft as "surface navigating".  Although he spent the next hour citing examples to support his naming it this way, he could've gone all day with plenty of material in reserve.

[Ragsf15e]

17 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

Not all familiar in the air either sometimes in some foreign airspace. Plenty of distractions with language barriers, lack of technology, different ICAO terminologies and foreign boundaries requiring pre-arranged permissions that lead to distractions and preconceived bias that are hard to get your head to see through sometimes, especially when on the back side of the body clock…

Depends on the country of course, but I’ll never forget flying from Egypt to Kuwait… tanker took us just past the red sea, topped the two of us off and went back to Spain.  Route was across northern Saudi.  Up until the tanker left, they had all the comms on vhf, but we were uhf only at the time.  They gave us a freq, the route, and “comms aren’t real good right here but you should be able to contact them on 336.2 in ~50 miles.” Then that beautiful big KC-10 did a 180 and it got really quiet.  Next thing I see is the WSO in #1s jet with about 8 feet of map in a 3 foot cockpit.  He was covered in charts.  Probably looking for more frequencies because we couldn’t talk to anyone, but we quickly started getting yelled at on several frequencies including guard.  Some of it was even in English which was great except when we heard things like “American fighter jets, you very bad!” and “you not clearance!” My flight lead tried to communicate, but we never really got through.  Well that went on for what seemed like about 40 minutes until we got close to Kuwait.  My flight lead looked at me at one point and shrugged his shoulders?  Still no reliable comms or really any clearance.  We just assumed the “super power, coming through!” Mindset and crossed into kuwuait, called up AlJaber tower and got a real live American controller who cleared us to land.  Good memories…

[GeeBee]

Hey if Russia can do "thunder runs" of TU-95 Bear bombers right through the NATs off of Ireland without consequence, I don't think a few F-15s over bedouin country really is that big a deal. 

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

Considering the way neither pilot caught the incorrect turn despite a correct readback, I'd have to answer "most-likely yes".

 

I would beg to differ. When running behind, stressed like because you are trying to remember new procedures that changed that week so probably your first flight with the new change the brain has a great ability to mimic what you just heard and say it back but not process it. We all do it at one time or another, My kids do this lots of times. I can ask what did i just say and they rattle it off exactly but still not process what they should do. Or my wife asks me what she just said and i can reiterate what she said even though I’m focusing on watching a football game and not realize she meant or process her request.