98 Allegro vs 1980 M20J

[Tx_Aggie]

I have a 1980 M20J. I’ve read there were a few aerodynamic adjustments in the 1987 205 model including inner gear doors, the newer wingtips, one piece belly panel and the removal of the ram air mechanism. did the 90’s MSE and ‘98 allegro have any other changes to the J model? My bird is cleaned up pretty well but if I can squeeze a few more knots out I’d like to.

[1980Mooney]

58 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said:

I have a 1980 M20J. I’ve read there were a few aerodynamic adjustments in the 1987 205 model including inner gear doors, the newer wingtips, one piece belly panel and the removal of the ram air mechanism. did the 90’s MSE and ‘98 allegro have any other changes to the J model? My bird is cleaned up pretty well but if I can squeeze a few more knots out I’d like to.

I have a 1980 J. I had Rocket Engineering convert it to the Missile over 20 years ago. They added the wing tips and aileron gap seals. I separately added the one piece belly. I don’t think that the wing tips or one piece belly add any speed. But the gap seals may help. I have flap hinge covers - can’t remember if they are standard. 
 

The one piece belly speeds belly inspections- I think there are only about 8 -10 cam locks. The wing tips unfortunately push me into a larger hangar (per city airport regs) by 6 inches. That costs me about $100/mo. more over the next smaller hangar which fits short and mid body Mooney’s Without wing tips  (squared wingtip) - no benefits there. 
 

https://lasar.com/mods

Any mod is a lot of money for little benefit.  Gap seals don’t cost a lot but there is considerable labor. If you add gap seals you will be doing some repainting too. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[ArtVandelay]

I removed the gap seals, no loss of speed.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, ArtVandelay said:

I removed the gap seals, no loss of speed.

Were they damaged?  Why did you remove?

[ArtVandelay]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Were they damaged?  Why did you remove?

The one of the aileron’s was damaged, I also removed the hinge covers because they prevented me from inspecting the hinges. 
Maybe saved me a couple of pounds.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

The one of the aileron’s was damaged, I also removed the hinge covers because they prevented me from inspecting the hinges. 
Maybe saved me a couple of pounds.

Also curious how people lube the flap bearings with the hinge covers in place. Sure you can squirt some oil in there, but who knows if it gets into the bearings?

[Tx_Aggie]

7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I have a 1980 J. I had Rocket Engineering convert it to the Missile over 20 years ago. They added the wing tips and aileron gap seals. I separately added the one piece belly. I don’t think that the wing tips or one piece belly add any speed. But the gap seals may help. I have flap hinge covers - can’t remember if they are standard. 
 

The one piece belly speeds belly inspections- I think there are only about 8 -10 cam locks. The wing tips unfortunately push me into a larger hangar (per city airport regs) by 6 inches. That costs me about $100/mo. more over the next smaller hangar which fits short and mid body Mooney’s Without wing tips  (squared wingtip) - no benefits there. 
 

https://lasar.com/mods

Any mod is a lot of money for little benefit.  Gap seals don’t cost a lot but there is considerable labor. If you add gap seals you will be doing some repainting too. 

No offense but would it be fair to say it’s  hard to tell the incremental speed gains in your situation due to the addition of 100 hp? I don’t know if a missile conversion is available for me but I think that’s a great combination for the J model! A friend with an ovation files for 190 ktas at 11,000. Can you get the same speeds at 65-75% power?

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The one of the aileron’s was damaged, I also removed the hinge covers because they prevented me from inspecting the hinges. 
Maybe saved me a couple of pounds.

That's interesting because I have also had the feeling that, even for an ordinary pre-flight, I can't see the hinge very well -- maybe not well enough to see a defect.

[larryb]

I had an ‘84 J and I now have a ‘97 Encore. The newer model has a much nicer interior. No more Royalite. Nice fabric covered fiberglass. Better soundproofing as well.

[carusoam]

The closer you get to 94…

The more updated everything was to O1 level….

Fancy wing tips, max UL, and gap seals to the max… and interior panels are really nice…

Improvements are hard to come by after that…

Roller bearings in an IO390…

TopProp or MT…

Fully integrated WAAS based panel…

+1 for adding an IO550… the Missile came with 300hp…. Go 1980! (the MSer not the year…) 

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

37 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said:

No offense but would it be fair to say it’s  hard to tell the incremental speed gains in your situation due to the addition of 100 hp? I don’t know if a missile conversion is available for me but I think that’s a great combination for the J model! A friend with an ovation files for 190 ktas at 11,000. Can you get the same speeds at 65-75% power?

With the IO550 cruising around at 12k’…

I planned around 175kts ROP, 165 LOP, using 2500rpm…

With the O3 power plant… using 2550 rpm things go a bit faster with more gph…

It would be a great day to get 190kts at 11k’ as MP has dropped off a bit from the lower altitudes…

Of course….he could be cruising with the rpm up a bit higher…?

 

As far as new conversions to Missiles go… not a currently available option…

A Missile conversion really made sense at the time… then Ovations and Eagles made the financial decision a bit tougher…

If you can get 10 orders for Missile conversions together… things could technically change… but act sooner rather than later….  Certain People are getting noticeably older…?

Instead of converting the M20J to a Missile…

trading to a different plane is probably the next option…

Existing Missile, Ovation, Eagle….

The Missile IO550 experience spawned a few great planes…

PP thoughts only, not a sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[1980Mooney]

21 minutes ago, larryb said:

I had an ‘84 J and I now have a ‘97 Encore. The newer model has a much nicer interior. No more Royalite. Nice fabric covered fiberglass. Better soundproofing as well.

True - nicer, more substantial. And those panels are heavier than thin Royalite - less U.L.

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

True - nicer, more substantial. And those panels are heavier than thin Royalite - less U.L.

Put the Missile on the list….

For the possible UL increase that the LBs may get somewhere off in the distant future…. 
 

That… would be really cool!   An M20J cruising around on New LB legs…  

 

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

Well it has the carbon fiber cowl to offset the heavier interior. So light!

[1980Mooney]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

If you can get 10 orders for Missile conversions together… things could technically change… but act sooner rather than later….  Certain People are getting noticeably older…?

Older is right. There have been several posts in the last year that it is getting harder and harder to get anyone at Rocket to answer the phone or email. 

[Tx_Aggie]

25 minutes ago, carusoam said:

With the IO550 cruising around at 12k’…

I planned around 175kts ROP, 165 LOP, using 2500rpm…

With the O3 power plant… using 2550 rpm things go a bit faster with more gph…

It would be a great day to get 190kts at 11k’ as MP has dropped off a bit from the lower altitudes…

Of course….he could be cruising with the rpm up a bit higher…?

 

As far as new conversions to Missiles go… not a currently available option…

A Missile conversion really made sense at the time… then Ovations and Eagles made the financial decision a bit tougher…

If you can get 10 orders for Missile conversions together… things could technically change… but act sooner rather than later….  Certain People are getting noticeably older…?

Instead of converting the M20J to a Missile…

trading to a different plane is probably the next option…

Existing Missile, Ovation, Eagle….

The Missile IO550 experience spawned a few great planes…

PP thoughts only, not a sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

Right I think the missile is out of my grasp, but I do think I can improve the ‘80 J and squeeze a few more knots out of it. I stumbled on an old aopa article claiming the MSE could get 168 knots at 8000’. Can’t remember if that was at 2700/max rpm or not but in Mooney fashion, I bet there’s some margin to be gained. 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

Well it has the carbon fiber cowl to offset the heavier interior. So light!

Actually tubby.  The 252 empty weight was 1,800 lbs.  The Encore empty weight was 2,000 lbs. - 11% heavier than a 252.    Only because Mooney increased the GW on the Encore to 3,130 lbs was the Encore able to carry more than 2 pax.  

[Mooney in Oz]

41 minutes ago, Tx_Aggie said:

I stumbled on an old aopa article claiming the MSE could get 168 knots at 8000’. Can’t remember if that was at 2700/max rpm or not but in Mooney fashion, I bet there’s some margin to be gained. 

Beware of marketing speed claims.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Unless you are a real tinkerer I doubt money spent on speed mods to your ‘80 J model will see much in the way of returns.  Make sure it is well-rigged, has properly fitting gear doors and good spinner alignment, and remove any unneeded antennas and leave well enough alone.  Oh, also.  How’s your paint?   Give it a good polish and wax if it isn’t already.  That’s good for a little over two knots according to the Cafe Foundation.  Maybe also carry a case of oil around in the baggage compartment if you rarely fly with back seaters to move the CG aft.   

 

3 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

No offense but would it be fair to say it’s  hard to tell the incremental speed gains in your situation due to the addition of 100 hp? I don’t know if a missile conversion is available for me but I think that’s a great combination for the J model! A friend with an ovation files for 190 ktas at 11,000. Can you get the same speeds at 65-75% power?

The lack of speed gains from wingtips on the Mooney square wing is well documented here.

Bill Wheat explained " that the winglets were not necessarily a drag reduction component as much as they provided more air flow back on the ailerons creating more effectiveness. "

Per @Blue on Top "Squared off tips are actually good.  The reason is that one wants the wingtip vortices to depart the airplane cleanly.  Any roundness will cause the vortices to cling to the airplane and be drawn inward ... slightly shortening the wingspan."

He went to explain "Winglets were originally designed to allow for a gross weight increase without having to beef up the spar or re-wing the airplane.  If airlines really wanted the highest efficiency airplanes they would have longer wings (not winglets) ... and then they would not fit at the gates."

Winglets actually add drag under most flight circumstances.  And @Blue on Top concluded "If you're cruising at 5-8K, you'll add drag."

I think Rocket required them on mine because they increased my GW to 3,200 lbs.

So yes the extra HP I have helps overcome the increased drag from my winglets.

Granted they look nice - maybe they will make you feel like you are flying faster.

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

The wing tips also make a nice place to hide antennas…

Unfortunately Blue can’t be here to consult with…

How much speed can be gained from what is hidden in there?

Other antennas got hidden under the glass belly panel…

It would be cool to have a carbon fiber cowl with a matching spinner…

 

A daily WnB re-arrangement to always fly at the back of the envelope may gain the most kias….

 

PP thoughts only…

-a-

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The one of the aileron’s was damaged, I also removed the hinge covers because they prevented me from inspecting the hinges. 
Maybe saved me a couple of pounds.

 

5 hours ago, PT20J said:

Also curious how people lube the flap bearings with the hinge covers in place. Sure you can squirt some oil in there, but who knows if it gets into the bearings?

During the last 22 years, no problem lubricating the flap hinge and bearings from the open back - the sides flare a little. No abnormal wear and zero maintenance required on the flap bearings during that time.  And I fly hard and fast - per earlier thread on Flap Operating Speeds, I many times drop half flaps at speeds higher than POH and there have been times when I was firewall forward wondering why I was slow only to realize I forgot to raise the flaps.

Think about it another way - the bearings are nicely protected by the Wing Flap Hinge Covers.  For those without the hinge covers, the hinge and bearings are being constantly blasted by the elements blowing through the bearings at about 140-180 mph. No wonder they need more lubrication and attention to wear.

From both an engineering and operating standpoint I prefer the Hinge Covers

(SPECIAL ORDER ONLY) WING FLAP HINGE COVER FAIRINGS - LASKIT102 — LASAR

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[ArtVandelay]

To be clear, I was referring to hinge covers on elevators, rudder…add ons installed by PO.

[1980Mooney]

5 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

No offense but would it be fair to say it’s  hard to tell the incremental speed gains in your situation due to the addition of 100 hp? I don’t know if a missile conversion is available for me but I think that’s a great combination for the J model! A friend with an ovation files for 190 ktas at 11,000. Can you get the same speeds at 65-75% power?

Just to be clear - it will be hard to continuously make 65-75% power in a normally aspirated engine at 11,000 ft. -especially on a warm day. More like 60-65%.

I also plan 170-175 kts at 11,000 at 2,400 rpm ROP. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

Brings up the turbo add-on idea….

for either engine…

IO550 or IO360…

once the aerodynamics are fully fleshed out… go turbo!

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

34 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Just to be clear - no normally aspirated engine can make 65-75% power at 11,000 ft.  More like 50%.

I also plan 170-175 kts at 11,000 at 2,400 rpm ROP. 

I can see 65% power at 11,000 if I want to go full RPM. definitely not a way I'd ever want to continuously fly

 

4 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

A friend with an ovation files for 190 ktas at 11,000. Can you get the same speeds at 65-75% power?

190KTAS in an ovation is realistic if you decide to fly WOT, MAX RPM, 50* ROP with the 310HP conversion or if you have the 2 blade McCauley that had pretty poor takeoff and climb performance. You can probably see that burning 15 to 16GPH which most people aren't willing to do. I happily fly mine at around 175 knots at 12GPH LOP. I can get another 180 knots at 13GPH, but as I've flown more and with the currently gas prices, I see myself flying at lower power settings  or higher more and more.