I have a hole you don’t have…

[Glen Davis]

I have a 1984 J. Under the cowling, on the pilot side, near the back of the nose gear door, I have a hole in the bottom of the cowling about the size of a quarter. Inside of that hole is a fuel petcock (drain)  like the ones on the wings. There is a placard next to it which says “gascolator drain”.   I have talked to other 1984 J owners who tell me they have no such hole and drain.  I can’t find anything in the POH preflight checklist discussing this, specifically draining some fuel during preflight inspection from this drain with a plastic fuel drain cup, looking for water.  Do any other J owners have this hole and drain?  Did I miss something in the POH?

[toto]

I have the gascolator drain. The toggle for it is a small ring on the floor board (typically under the floor mat) on the pilot’s side. It’s a serious pain to drain it into a fuel cup.

ETA snippet from my preflight checklist:

[EricJ]

Yes, that's on my J as well.   The ring on the floor in front of the pilot's seat opens it.    Be sure to push it back down or make sure it reseats after you pull it.    That drains the gascolator bowl, which is the lowest point in the fuel system, near the fuel selector.    This is why the POH says to drain it a bit, switch tanks and drain it a bit again.   If any water has migrated downstream from the tank(s) since last flight this is where it'll be.

It does take two people to actually take a sample or to capture it, at least without some of the creative capture means that people have posted in the past.   Especially these days when fuel spills are considered environmental events, many airports discourage just draining it onto the ramp.    The pavement in front of my hangar has a lot of "mystery spot" stains and I'm always a little worried that airport management is gonna ask me about them. 

[kortopates]

I have talked to other 1984 J owners who tell me they have no such hole and drain.  I can’t find anything in the POH preflight checklist discussing this, specifically draining some fuel during preflight inspection from this drain with a plastic fuel drain cup, looking for water.  Do any other J owners have this hole and drain?  Did I miss something in the POH?

Some how there was a miss communication or misunderstanding because all Mooney’s have a gascolator forward of the fuel selector.
And all the pre-flight procedures call for it’s use. Although the sequence has changed over the years.
Earlier Mooney’s checklist had you drain the gascolator at the start of the pre-flight when you where checking fuel gauges on panel and then had you sump tanks next.
But Mooney reversed the order in more modern Mooneys to sump the tanks first and then drain the gascolator last.
The reason for this is if there is a lot of water in a tank you don’t want to contaminate the fuel line to the engine. Drain it out of tank first and only drain the gascolator after any water was removed.

Lastly i bet i understand the reason for the miss understanding since no one has that hole at the bottom of their “cowling” this area is better described as the belly pan area, rather than cowling. The cowling doesn’t start till forward of the nose wheel doors. So it was probably the location you gave that led to the miss understanding.


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[kortopates]

It does take two people to actually take a sample or to capture it, at least without some of the creative capture means that have posted in the past.   Especially these days when fuel spills are considered environmental events, many airports discourage just draining it onto the ramp.    The pavement in front of my hangar has a lot of "mystery spot" stains and I'm always a little worried that airport management is gonna ask me about them. 

Good points. I almost learned the hard way that in my area, draining on the tarmac without two people can get you failed on a checkride by a local DPE!


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[EricJ]

46 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Good points. I almost learned the hard way that in my area, draining on the tarmac without two people can get you failed on a checkride by a local DPE!

 

D'oh!   Hadn't heard of or thought about that one!

 

[MikeOH]

54 minutes ago, kortopates said:

 

Good points. I almost learned the hard way that in my area, draining on the tarmac without two people can get you failed on a checkride by a local DPE!


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Based on what FAR or test standard?

[Glen Davis]

Sorry guys but I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m trying to ask. Yes, I do have the ring inside the cockpit that I can pull and fuel pours out on the floor underneath my airplane. And yes it would take two people to take a sample that way. But I don’t need to take a sample with two people because I can go outside the airplane, bend down underneath the engine, insert the needle of the fuel drain cup and fuel will pour into the cup.  Am I the only one that has a fuel drain underneath my engine that can be drained externally into a fuel cup? Or, does everyone only have the ring inside the cockpit and no way to take a fuel sample externally?

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Glen Davis said:

Sorry guys but I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m trying to ask. Yes, I do have the ring inside the cockpit that I can pull and fuel pours out on the floor underneath my airplane. And yes it would take two people to take a sample that way. But I don’t need to take a sample with two people because I can go outside the airplane, bend down underneath the engine, insert the needle of the fuel drain cup and fuel will pour into the cup.  Am I the only one that has a fuel drain underneath my engine that can be drained externally into a fuel cup? Or, does everyone only have the ring inside the cockpit and no way to take a fuel sample externally?

I can't provide a link, but I think I have read that using the cup can damage the valve and cause a leak.  Do you have the Cies senders?

[Glen Davis]

No Cies senders.  

[kortopates]

19 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Based on what FAR or test standard?

Not a FAR but the law in Calif prevents draining fuel onto the ramp. I am not a legal guy so don't ask me for the source.

[kortopates]

28 minutes ago, Glen Davis said:

Sorry guys but I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m trying to ask. Yes, I do have the ring inside the cockpit that I can pull and fuel pours out on the floor underneath my airplane. And yes it would take two people to take a sample that way. But I don’t need to take a sample with two people because I can go outside the airplane, bend down underneath the engine, insert the needle of the fuel drain cup and fuel will pour into the cup.  Am I the only one that has a fuel drain underneath my engine that can be drained externally into a fuel cup? Or, does everyone only have the ring inside the cockpit and no way to take a fuel sample externally?

I don't think anyone miss understands you. The preferred way to drain the gascolator is with the ring in the cockpit. But they can also be drained by pushing the metal rod on the fuel drain cup into the gascolator. This method isn't recommended because on some Mooney gascolators you can nick an o-ring that way and start a drip; yet many people do it. Some gascolators are more tolerant of it than others.

I'll add, strictly my opinion, its not necessary to drain the gascolator every day if your a frequent flyer, to avoid risk of the o-ring wearing out before the next annual when it should be changed.

Also opinion, but if your using the old little cup that only allows taking a couple ounces of fuel, highly recommend getting a GATTS Jar. Our fuel caps are really prone to leaking with the original o-rings when parked overnight in the rain.  The Gatts Jar allows taking a much larger sample as well as safely putting the fuel back into the tank without risk of contamination.  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/gatsfueljar.php?clickkey=3017319

Edited December 31, 2022 by kortopates

[MikeOH]

6 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Not a FAR but the law in Calif prevents draining fuel onto the ramp. I am not a legal guy so don't ask me for the source.

So the DPE is acting as an enforcement officer for the state California.

Still not following how that gives him the authority to fail you for a checkride??

[kortopates]

17 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

So the DPE is acting as an enforcement officer for the state California.

Still not following how that gives him the authority to fail you for a checkride??

'She' threatened to do so - on an instrument pilot candidate. She didn't carry out the threat. But I doubt a candidate would have leg to stand-on if they willfully violated local or state ordinances in challenging her. This isn't a hill worth dying on.

[McMooney]

so question, is this different from the gascolater on an E?  Mine works just like the other fuel drains,  insert fuel drainey cup get fuel

 

[1980Mooney]

10 minutes ago, McMooney said:

so question, is this different from the gascolater on an E?  Mine works just like the other fuel drains,  insert fuel drainey cup get fuel

My J is the same - you either pull it up from inside or insert the wire rod on the traditional drain cup up from below.

This is picture of a dissembled K gascolator .

[KB4]

16 hours ago, Glen Davis said:

can’t find anything in the POH

It’s in there.  
 

Jar sitting on a 5 gal to capture, engage fuel pump, pull up on ring for 5-7 sec, switch tanks repeat process. 

[jlunseth]

I also learned the hard way that you don’t check the gascolator by using a pin-type sump cup to push the valve open from below. The valve does not work that way. In my case the valve jammed open and spilled a couple of gallons before I could get it closed. You have to pull the ring from inside the cockpit with a container below and then you have to find a place to properly dispose of the fuel. It is so complicated I don’t bother anymore, I do check the wing sumps.

[Ragsf15e]

15 hours ago, Glen Davis said:

Sorry guys but I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m trying to ask. Yes, I do have the ring inside the cockpit that I can pull and fuel pours out on the floor underneath my airplane. And yes it would take two people to take a sample that way. But I don’t need to take a sample with two people because I can go outside the airplane, bend down underneath the engine, insert the needle of the fuel drain cup and fuel will pour into the cup.  Am I the only one that has a fuel drain underneath my engine that can be drained externally into a fuel cup? Or, does everyone only have the ring inside the cockpit and no way to take a fuel sample externally?

Look back through your logs.  We had a thread about a year ago where someone had a leak at the fuel selector drain and took it to DMax.  Apparently the drain parts aren’t available, so Dmax was able to use a standard wing drain as you are describing.  Maybe yours is modified like that.  Should be in the airframe log.

Its also a good idea to learn about your airplane by exploring… take that panel off and have a look. Just be careful with the screws along the nose gear door as they are hard to get out without scratching the nose gear.

[EricJ]

29 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Its also a good idea to learn about your airplane by exploring… take that panel off and have a look. Just be careful with the screws along the nose gear door as they are hard to get out without scratching the nose gear.

I always disconnect the pushrods to the nose gear doors, which allows them to be moved out of the way enough to get at the screws easily.   One of mine is essentially impossible to get out without opening the door up more than the rod allows.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

I always disconnect the pushrods to the nose gear doors, which allows them to be moved out of the way enough to get at the screws easily.   One of mine is essentially impossible to get out without opening the door up more than the rod allows.

I wonder if there’s a lot of difference in the “bulbous” part of the nose gear door.  I’ve disconnected mine and it’s still in the way.  I need to disconnect it and push it closed, but it hits the nose gear before I have room for a normal screwdriver.  I use one of these, but it’s still a little work… and reconnecting the nose gear door is a PIA for such a little part.  On jacks with the gear up is like heaven!

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I wonder if there’s a lot of difference in the “bulbous” part of the nose gear door.  I’ve disconnected mine and it’s still in the way.  I need to disconnect it and push it closed, but it hits the nose gear before I have room for a normal screwdriver.  I use one of these, but it’s still a little work… and reconnecting the nose gear door is a PIA for such a little part.  On jacks with the gear up is like heaven!

It's weird how each airplane is so different.   The model-to-model differences are often way more than I expect.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I also learned the hard way that you don’t check the gascolator by using a pin-type sump cup to push the valve open from below. The valve does not work that way. In my case the valve jammed open and spilled a couple of gallons before I could get it closed. You have to pull the ring from inside the cockpit with a container below and then you have to find a place to properly dispose of the fuel. It is so complicated I don’t bother anymore, I do check the wing sumps.

Why do you have to dispose the fuel?  I just put a 2 quart painters cup under the drain (the tall sides prevent splashing better than a bowl), then pour it into my GATS jar with the top off to examine.  If there's no water, I put the top with the filter on and pour it back in the tank.

FWIW, I've done the gascolator drain from below as well a couple times, mainly because I was too lazy to climb back in the plane to do it.  But I otherwise try to do it from the pull ring 

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I also learned the hard way that you don’t check the gascolator by using a pin-type sump cup to push the valve open from below. The valve does not work that way. In my case the valve jammed open and spilled a couple of gallons before I could get it closed. You have to pull the ring from inside the cockpit with a container below and then you have to find a place to properly dispose of the fuel. It is so complicated I don’t bother anymore, I do check the wing sumps.

Thing is, if you have water it’s probably more likely to be there than anywhere.

Hadn't thought about what you guys in California do. Blackhawk and Apache use bleed air on shutdown to blow out the fuel manifold, injectors etc, and that’s blown onto the ground, a cup or so of Jet fuel, somewhere late 80’s early 90’s I guess the EPA gave the Military some time limit if they didn’t fix it, there would be huge fines, When I left the test activity in 03 they were still doing it and no one thought anything about it, wonder what they do in California?

Garrets blow the fuel into the combustion chamber and burn it, on the Thrush we installed an “EPA” can, about the size of a coke can the shutdown fuel drained into, once it filled it just dumped the fuel out of its drain, so no one bothered to empty the EPA can.

At Ft Irwin ( California) if I did a compressor flush I had to use a special cleaner made by Calgon that didn’t clean anything, we had to catch it in a plastic Kiddie pool, let it evaporate and clean the Kiddie pool out with paper towels after it dried.

[A64Pilot]

15 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

My J is the same - you either pull it up from inside or insert the wire rod on the traditional drain cup up from below.

This is picture of a dissembled K gascolator .

Anyone know a source of the O-rings / overhaul kit for the above pictured gascolator?