After an 18-year flying hiatus, looking for the right M20 model to buy

[Ed de C.]

Good evening, folks – I’m just back from an 18-year hiatus raising kids.  Looking for the right M20 model to focus in on for purchase this summer.  I’ve spent a few hours searching through these threads but accept my apologies if I’ve duplicated an existing thread.  It's certainly an outstanding group here.

A short note on my background and mission:  I’m 59, instrument rated, with about 800 hours TT, 200 hours in a 1982 M20J 30 years ago (I liked the plane and flying experience) and built/flew a Lancair 360 putting 300 hours on it (complex time), selling it 18 years ago when the kids came along.  I just got my VFR currency back and am now renting 2004 DA-40s with G1000 and working to get my head around that much glass.  Instrument currency is next up.  Kids are in high school/college, the 529’s are funded, and the wife is game (since she remembers the Lancair when we were dating and newly married).

I’m based in southeast Michigan (KPTK is likely to be my homebase).  My annual mission profile at the moment would be 5 trips to Philadelphia (400 NM), 5 trips to Richmond IN (150 NM), 2 trips to Destin FL (800 NM ish) and the rest local sightseeing for passengers and getaways with the wife of unknown distances.  I don’t see flying west of the Mississippi.  I’m recently retired, so those wife-getaways could get creative to all sorts of places.  The Philly and Richmond trips are related to part time work and charity and so I’d like to have dispatch and weather reliability. 

60% of the time it will be only me in the plane, 30% of the time it will be 2 of us.  9% of the time it would be 3 and once in a long while it might be 4 (taking the kids up).  In my years of flying, I’ve never flown with 4.   I’m 5’ 10”, 180 lbs and my wife and family are proportional to that.  Health/fitness is good with no known squawks or deferred maintenance.  (I bring this up for the long-body v. short body options).  I figure I have 20 - 25 good flying years ahead.  Baggage requirements would be no more than what I’d carry on the airlines.

My budget is up to $300k for the purchase.  I figure 100 hours/year of flying and my spreadsheet suggests an annual outlay of $18k for fixed costs (hangar, insurance, annuals, repairs, subscriptions, etc) and $12k for the fuel, engine and paint/interior reserves.  I can stretch north of $300k if it’s compelling.  Having said that, I value a dollar, what I don’t spend on the plane can go to nicer hotels and gifts for kids.

The models that have my attention are:

1. M20K (252/Encore)
2. M20J (201/Allegro)
3. M20M (Bravo)
4. M20R (Ovation)
5. M20TN (Acclaim)

A few other thoughts: 

• I like comfort, meaning a smooth-running engine (as an automotive engineer I know the 6 should run smoother than the 4 in a J), nice looking interior, comfortable seats.  I fly with A20’s so I don’t expect noise to be an issue.
• Being in Michigan, ice is an ever-present problem November thru April.  My one tough experience with it was over Lake Erie in the M20J at night.  It was the loss of 20 KTAS that alerted me to the problem.  Happy ending, but I figure TKS would be a nice way out.  The Lancair was without ice protection of course and frankly I flew it 3 years here in Michigan without ever having to cancel.  But it could easily get me to FL190 and over lots of ice weather.
• I’m fine with oxygen (the cannulas) and used it well in the Lancair.  Wife was fine with it too.  Masks would likely be a different story.
• I like speed (the Lancair would cruise at 195 KTAS at 10k, cruise climb at 140, and that was with a Lyc IO-360) but as I get older, I don’t think I need to be the fastest.  M20J speeds would probably be acceptable (well, probably), but I’d like to be up there knowing I’ve got the equipment and flexibility to handle most of what might come my way.
• I found the discussion about buying a non-g1000 plane so that I can easily upgrade it to be compelling.  I admit to being attracted to glass and the Garmin autopilot and a Stormscope.

So, an idea to frame my question of which model to focus on: 

• Since I’m a flatlander, should I get an Ovation and consider TKS to be the icing solution (along with avoidance of course) or should I go with turbocharging for best weather capability (and maybe skip the TKS)?
• A lot of you certainly won’t go back (from turbocharging).  If a turbo model, I see a lot of argument for the Bravo.  But are there pro’s for the 252 or the Acclaim, given what I’ve described above? 
• I’ve only flown behind Lycoming 4-cylinders.  Am I missing out on the Continental experience or is it really 6 one, half dozen the other?

Thanks in advance for your guidance and don’t hesitate to challenge my assumptions and ask for more info.

[KSMooniac]

I would look for a TKS Ovation and bet that would check all of your boxes.  With or without glass....personally I'd not choose G1000 b/c you're locked-in forever (most likely).  If you get a G1000 (M20R Ovation GX) you'll want to find one with WAAS already included.  Double bonus if it happens to have the GFC 700 autopilot; many came with the STEC55X.  I have no idea if 300k will buy such a plane in this market, though, as I don't track it regularly anymore.  I'd rather buy a pre-G1000 model and install the latest Garmin stuff and GFC 500 autopilot, though, or buy one like that.

The M20S Eagle is an Ovation-lite that came with 244-hp on the same engine as the R.  STC support can turn it up to 280 or 310 hp, just like an Ovation.  I don't know if TKS was an option on the S, but I doubt it since it was the "budget" option after they discontinued the J.  If you can live without TKS, this would be a fine choice as they don't have G1000 and you can upgrade as you see fit.  There are only about 40 of those airframes left, though.

Having said that, a J would work just fine for your distances, especially if 800 NM is only twice a year.  300k would buy a top-market like-new J, but there aren't many with TKS, and those that have it are not FIKI certified.  FWIW, my J with an MT prop and a good dynamic balance is as smooth as any 6-cyl variant you might fly.  

A 252/Encore is perhaps the best Mooney made according to many, but I'm not sure it would be optimal for your missions.  Some have FIKI, though!  Some say the turbo adds another dimension to escape ice and I believe that, but in your part of the country you likely wouldn't need to go very high to escape, unlike the mountain west.  When I first joined the owner ranks, I read of regular commutes one owner did in his FIKI Ovation between CT and OH (I think), year-round.  He had some great write-ups of his decision making and Mooney performance.  

Bravo and Acclaim seem like the wrong fit as well IMO, although they would do the job just fine.

I've flown my J all over the lower 48, although I do long for a turbo.  Most of those trips are pleasure and flexible, so I deviate around big weather or wait when needed.  Retirement flying should give you the same flexibility, and an Ovation will handle any such trips to the west coast just fine if you're not stupid and/or impatient.

If you want to shortcut the process, lookup GMAX (Jimmy Garrison & Don Maxwell) if you haven't already, and maybe take a trip to TX to try on some Mooney options.  Bring a checkbook and you can fly home!

[KSMooniac]

More thoughts... comfy seats.  Newer model J's and K's (all relative now!) starting in the late 80's (I think) will have the vertically adjustable seats, and might have lumbar inflation as well.  Of course any Mooney seat can be custom refreshed to your specs with shape, foam type & density, covering material, etc. so don't fear a worn-out seat if you're willing to update after purchase.  A well-made seat is important!  ANR headsets and a finely-balanced engine and prop sure help make long flights a pleasure.  

I forgot to include the modified Mooneys.... the M20J Missile uses an IO-550 Continental engine, and the M20K Rocket uses a TSIO-550.  Some may have TKS as well.  They're generally lower-priced than the somewhat comparable Ovation or Bravo/Acclaim as they are "mods" but also older airframes, and mid-length fuselages vs. the long-body factory options.  They are great options too.

I suspect as soon as you try an Ovation you will want one.  Especially if you can get a late 90's/early 2000's version with the nicer interior panels.

[KSMooniac]

I couldn't resist going shopping for you.    I'd go get this one and fly it until the panel goodies decide to retire, and then figure out a glass/AP upgrade:

2000 MOONEY M20R OVATION2 For Sale in Longview, Texas | Controller.com

2nd choice, but no TKS:

2000 MOONEY M20R OVATION3 For Sale in Longview, Texas | Controller.com

 

 

[A64Pilot]

With that kind of money I’d go for whatever model has the non turbo 550, because I don’t fly mountains on any kind of regular basis, the O2 bottle hasn’t come out of the locker in years. I have a J, I wanted a J largely because I believe nothing is faster for less money, a J is I hope a frugal man’s airplane.

 So far as smoothness the four isn’t bad, especially if it’s been balanced within 1 gram and blueprinted and of course prop balanced, but even then a six is smoother by a little, a lot of that may be the sound, the four idles much rougher than a six though.

People will argue of course but unless you need it a turbo isn’t all that big of advantage, but if you want to go far and fast in the flight levels then you want a turbo, no question. I think intentionally flying into icing insane, but that’s just me. I don’t live up where icing happens.

Over time a turbo will cost quite a bit more to operate, cylinders won’t live as long and turbos and all the associated other hardware isn’t maintenance free, even the exhaust system has a shorter life. Most that argue a turbo doesn’t cost more haven’t had one long enough to find out, if they keep it long enough they will.

[Ragsf15e]

I live somewhere with ice too (Pacific NW).  I’d highly recommend the TKS.  Probably an Ovation would be fine.  You will have less stress over ice and more dispatch reliability.  
 

There are a few Eagles (M20S) with tks which are basically Ovations too.  They would also be good.

[hubcap]

With your mission, and the fact you will be by yourself over half the time, I would choose the M20K 252

[Ragsf15e]

24 minutes ago, hubcap said:

With your mission, and the fact you will be by yourself over half the time, I would choose the M20K 252

Also a good choice.  There were a few Encores built with tks, but not many and they are hard to come by.

[Schllc]

300k rules out g1000 ovations and all acclaims. 
The allegro and encores are rare, and difficult to find. 
If I had 400 and 800 nm trips and lived in Michigan I would want a turbo, and tks which would pretty much leave the bravo. 
Turbos cost more to maintain, but in the grand scheme of things it is a rounding error. 
everything is a trade off….

if you want modern avionics and a modern AP you will end up spending more than 300k though, in all of the models you listed anyway…

I also disagree with the other opinions on the g1000.
People who say to avoid or don’t like them, have never owned one.
You would not feel that way if you had, you wouldn’t  want anything else.   
You can’t miss what you’ve never had, and it isn't as if the newer stuff is bad, but it is not cheap. 

[Steve0715]

Jimmy Garrison has a couple of nice Encores.

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/218095391/1997-mooney-m20k-encore-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/218094775/1989-mooney-m20k-encore-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

[ilovecornfields]

I started an “Ovation vs Bravo” thread a few years ago and chose an Ovation.

From what you described, I’d go for a TKS Bravo if you can find one. I have a FIKI Ovation and will probably keep that plane until I quit flying but if you’re serious about dealing with ice having both TKS and turbo is helpful. When you’re trying to get on top of an icing layer at 15k and you’re only seeing 300 fpm you start thinking that it sure would be nice to have a turbo.

[LANCECASPER]

13 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I suspect as soon as you try an Ovation you will want one.  Especially if you can get a late 90's/early 2000's version with the nicer interior panels.

All Ovations have the fiberglass interior panels - the new side panels and the Ovation started at the same time and then made their way into the Bravo and eventually the last couple years of the J (Allegro) and K (Encore).

[Pinecone]

For some reason I am biased to the 252/Encore.

If you purchase a 252, it can be upgraded to become an Encore with the extra 230 pounds of gross weight.  From what I understand, the parts are about $15,000, less if you can scrounge come.

My 252/Encore was purchased upgraded.  It also has the Monroy long range tanks, so 104 gallons total.  My plane WB shows 1119 pound UL.  So full fuel, two people, and plenty baggage.  More people, you put in less fuel.

I did an 829 nm trip a couple of months ago, with pretty hefty head winds (25 - 30+), it was 6.2 hours, burning about 72 gallons.  Without the winds, it would have been about 5 hours.

In the mid-teens, I get 174 KTAS at 10.3 GPH, running LOP.

East of the Mississippi, you really don't need the turbo, but speeds up high are nice.  Also, there is very little traffic.  Most of GA is lower.  Most of the jet and turbo props are higher.  And you are mostly taking to center, so less frequency changes.

And, as you are retired, who knows, maybe you want to visit the western states some time.  That is one reason I got the 252.

The only downside is, there are not many 252s for sale.  

TKS would be nice, but you do take a weight hit. The system is listed at 92 pounds with full fluid.  If you really think you need it, buy an airplane with it.  It is very expensive to add.

FYI, I had a 20 year hiatus from flying.  Did my FR and IPC and was renting 172.  Also joined CAP and got checkout and fly C-182, including G1000.  And had a nice change to my financial status and decided, what the heck, buy a plane.   

 

[exM20K]

For your mission, I’d choose a turbo. You will easily top the fair weather cumulus in the summer and ice in the winter. Especially for those Destin trips, you’ll appreciate the speed and possibility of not needing a fuel stop. 

I would buy a plane, not a project.  Panel re-do’s are time and money sinkholes.  Adding FIKI TKS is very expensive now (I heard but not from @CAV Ice that a FIKI installation is pushing $100,000 now) and for at least some other models, there are no reservoir tanks, or they are bigly backordered.

I’m with @Schllcregarding G1000/GFC700. They just work and will be supported for longer than I’m likely to have a medical. However, your budget would not cover an acclaim, and the handful of G1000 Bravos out there have an Stec autopilot, so ever I d about all that if you go turbo.

FIKI Encores are the unicorn planes. If I could have found one when I bought the Acclaim, I probably would have bought it.

prepare yourself, if you haven’t already, for the current state of aircraft prices.  Elevated, to say the least.  If you can make the stretch into an Acclaim, do it!  They aren’t making any more, and it is simply an astoundingly capable aircraft.  
 

We owned a TKS equipped 231 1997-2009 and flew it some 2000 hours.  Great plane.  My company has owned the acclaim since 2016, and I haven’t found anything as well suited to my mission, hangar, and runway constraints.

Good luck.

[LANCECASPER]

If you had already made up your mind on non-turbo and only were deciding between a J and an Ovation, based on your preference of smooth and your reference to speed and 6 cylinder I would say Ovation since every time you are in a 20-25 knot headwind and you are seeing 130 kts groundspeed on the J you will wish you would have purchased the Ovation.

But since you are debating between a Turbo or not, for the same reason of no regret and just buying once, I would say if you can do it, go Turbo. 

[KSMooniac]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

All Ovations have the fiberglass interior panels - the new side panels and the Ovation started at the same time and then made their way into the Bravo and eventually the last couple years of the J (Allegro) and K (Encore).

Thanks for the correction, Lance.  I guess I never knew the Ovation of 1994-1995 came with the new interior panels and then they later flowed "down" to the end of the J & K lines.  I thought the panels appeared in the 96-97 timeframe.  (as a college senior/new grad in that era I was not shopping for new planes!  :P)

[Ed de C.]

Guys – this is great.  You’ve helped me narrow this down a bit. 

I’ll put out this hypothesis:  My “Forever airplane” (at least while I’m alive) should be a turbo and try to find one with TKS.  The panel is more flexible with thoughts in several directions. 

The baseline target might be an Encore (97-98)

Pros: Altitude flexibility, reasonable speed (don’t need more), fairly modern interior, I have 6 – 9 months of find one

Cons:  Can I find one with TKS or similar?  What will the panel look like.

 

Alternatives:   M20M Bravo

Pros:  more likely to find one with FIKI and avionics

Cons:  Will that Lycoming run LOP?  On the other hand, is that a big deal?

 

Alternative:  M20 TN (Acclaim)

Pros:  more likely to find one with FIKI and avionics, the latest in capability

Cons:  simply price.

If I start with the Encore, what would the argument be for a Bravo or Acclaim, other than availability, which might be actually key?

My local FBO seems to be Savvy approved and able to do Mooney work. 

 

Best,

Ed

[KLRDMD]

On 12/19/2022 at 5:58 PM, KSMooniac said:

I forgot to include the modified Mooneys.... the M20J Missile uses an IO-550 Continental engine, and the M20K Rocket uses a TSIO-550.  

The Rocket has a -520, not a -550.

[exM20K]

48 minutes ago, Ed de C. said:

If I start with the Encore, what would the argument be for a Bravo or Acclaim, other than availability, which might be actually key?

Acclaim, especially with the 310HP climbes *significantly* better. I routinely see 12-1500 FPM at MTOW and 130KIAS. K model is more like 700 FPM @ 120 KIAS IIRC.

Acclaim is quite a bit faster but will burn more fuel.  I flight plan 205 KTAS at 16-17,000 on approx 16.2 GPH LOP.  I don’t remember what my 231 did exactly, but my recollection is something like 175 KTAS on 12GPH. Acclaim carries more fuel but has less UL. Figure just under 900# for a FIKI Acclaim vs 1050 for FIKI Encore.

The better climb rate makes trips @ 16,000 and above painless.

no experience with the bravo for me.

flightaware performance plus has good models for the acclaim and likely for the 252/encore/bravo. See which works best for your missions, but be sure to subtract 5% from cruise for TKS.

-dan

[exM20K]

There is a 252 based at Howell (KOZW).  I don’t know the owner, but maybe you could ask around or look him up and get a 1st person feel for the 252.

https://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N252EM
-dan

[KSMooniac]

The Rocket has a -520, not a -550.

Duh, thanks for the correction! That's two mistakes for me this week! I need to fly more and work less.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[donkaye]

As a Mooney specific flight instructor, I've got extensive time in all models you are considering.  While I like them all, and each has their strong points, I've owned my Bravo for 30 years, am on my 3rd engine, and went through the process of a major upgrade followed by additional relatively small ones as Garmin kept coming out with new "must have" equipment.  Doing a major upgrade is really no fun, but the results make it all worth while.  As I've said before, the Bravo is probably the best value out there, and once you've had a taste of a turbo, you'll not want to go without one whether you're East of the Mississippi or not.  For example in the summertime on a hot muggy day, the sooner you get to 10,000 feet the better you and your passenger will like it.  In the Southwest in the summertime around the Phoenix area, it's 12,500 feet before the thermal turbulence lets up.

So, not surprisingly, I vote in favor of the Bravo for you.

[Mufflerbearing]

As mentioned above, the Eagle is a great choice for several reasons.  Being the stripped down model, it has the best UL.  Having the ability to bring it to the Screaming Eagle with the higher HP STC also allows for the higher fuel capacity.  Being the stripped model, it came with simple avionics and most have been upgraded.  Mine came with the Screaming Eagle engine upgrade, FIKI, dual wass 430's and has a new set of Aspen 2500 screens and the Stek 55x.  I love the set up and being able to run 11.5 gph at 167 KTAS is awesome.  I do run it all over the west often running from north Idaho to Utah to western Washington.  Perfect, fast, fuel efficient, safe and well optioned unicorn airplane.  You wouldn't be sorry.  Yes, the Bravo is awesome as well and in many ways better, but keeping the future maintenance expenses at bay helps me sleep well.

[CAV Ice]

@exM20K I sent you a message

[LANCECASPER]

22 hours ago, Ed de C. said:

The baseline target might be an Encore (97-98)

Pros: Altitude flexibility, reasonable speed (don’t need more), fairly modern interior, I have 6 – 9 months of find one

Cons:  Can I find one with TKS or similar?  What will the panel look like.

There were only 36 Encores made ever (Serial numbers 25-2001 - 2036). I know of at least 6 that left  the U. S.

I owned one with TKS (N40FM) that I later sold to a doctor in Erie PA where TKS is a must. I think there were only 2 or 3 where TKS was done at the factory. CAV may have installed TKS on some later on though. TKS airplanes don't change hands nearly as often, since people specifically bought them for a purpose. Waiting for a TKS Encore . .  highly unlikely that's going to happen.

 

A TKS Acclaim S with some history showed up on Controller today. Even with a little history (hard landing repair and a gear up/prop strike repair) it's still a great deal. It won't last long.

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219803977/2008-mooney-acclaim-type-s-piston-single-aircraft

 

The ad has some incorrect information:

It says 2008 paint, it was repainted in 2017 - looks like a good paint job though.

It says long range tanks, not, it has 100 gallon tanks. Long Range tanks are an STC for 130 gallons.

It doesn't mention the hard landing repair, but combing through the logs shows a hard landing (tail strike).